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Author Topic: How to Solve an EFI No Start  (Read 73814 times)
Joel5.0
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« on: July 30, 2006, 07:37:26 pm »

How many times have we seen those "please help me", "WTF?", "picked up dry cleaning, went to the parking lot, and the car doesn't start",......posts?

I know... ... ... Dammit!.... .... ..... Cry....... WTF...... Shit Hits the Fan.....(pick your smilie).

The condition means you either have No Spark, No Fuel or a No Compression problem...this last one I will not include because it's usually followed by an overheating condition or a major snafu in the engine that would be previously accompanied by other signs or symptoms.

No Start due to No Spark

Needed Tools/Chemicals:

To start trying to identify if it's a fuel or a spark problem, place ign key in on, check for the fuel pump priming sound, if OK or NOK, remove the breather hose from the throttle body and spray some carburetor cleaner through the TB port.

Attempt to start engine, if engine starts for a couple of seconds and dies, the problem is a No Fuel condition....if the engine doesn't start at all, the problem is a No Spark condition...

NO Spark

  Loosen distributor holding bolt with ½" wrench, remove plug from coil, turn ign on, while holding the coild plug ~ ?" away from the coil tower, rotate distributor left-right-left....spark doesn't arc from coil to plug = next step...spark arcs from coil to plug = check condition of distributor rotor and cap, and replace.

  You could also check for spark using one of the spark plugs, grounding it to the frame while activating the starter with the key in IGN ON, or as shown in the video clip below courtesy of 302Army187

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/gVKh82SuDQ8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/gVKh82SuDQ8&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01</a>

  Place ignition key in on, with the 12-vdc test light connected to a good ground, probe the (+) terminal at the coil (Red/Lt Green wire)...test light off = usually an ignition switch or 20 GA fuse link problem....test light on = next step.

  Place ignition key in on, with the 12-vdc test light connected to a good ground, probe the (-) terminal at the coil (Tan/Yellow wire)...test light off  = replace coil, test light on = next step.

  Place ignition key in on, with the 12-vdc test light connected to a good ground, probe the (-) terminal at the coil (Tan/Yellow wire), rotate distributor left-right-left and check test light...test light blinks  = replace coil....test light on = next step.

  Ign On, backprobe or disconnect TFI and check with test light, pin #4 (ICM Power)...test light on = next step, test light off = open problem in wiring that needs tracing and repair.


  Up till now the problem is either a TFI module, or a stator sensor failure. Your options are to either replace the module and check if it starts, or follow this testing procedure to rule out/id the module as the culprit, and replace the stator sensor, TFI module, or both....I usually recommend the latter one for these cases anyway..... I'm sorry

Next post....the No Fuel Condition.......stay tuned...otherwise......
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 07:35:56 am by Joel5.0 » Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
Joel5.0
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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2006, 06:58:43 pm »

A No Fuel Condition is either caused by a lack of fuel pressure, or absence of fuel injectors pulsing.

Tools/Equipment/Diagrams Needed:


NO Fuel

  Attach fuel pressure gauge to the schrader valve at the fuel rail or fuel line.

   If you were able to notice the fuel pump prime buzzing sound, turn ign on and check pressure gauge reading, you might want to repeat the ign-off-on cycle a couple of times, or attach a jumper wire to the FP terminal at the VIP/Diagnostics connector, and ground it. As long as the wire is grounded, the fuel pump should turn on. Pressure reading should be between 30-45psi.....OK = No Fuel Injector Pulse   ....NOK = next step?fuel pump not heard = Fuel Pump Circuit Problem  

  Since pump activation is confirmed, but pressure is lower than 30 psi, the fuel tank must be dropped. Remove the fuel pump assy., check the small hose that connects the pump to the feed line for leaks/ruptures....No leaks/ruptures = replace fuel pump.

No Fuel Injector Pulse  

  The no fuel condition could be caused by an injectors not opening problem?turn ign on, check voltage at the Red wire of any of the injector connectors with the test light?light on = next step...light off = the power feed wire to the injectors needs to be traced and repaired for an open, you should also check and perform the salt & pepper connectors fix + recheck for injector power ign on.

   Using a noid light, or the 12-vdc test light, used as a jumper between the injector harness connector pins (clip and point ends), loosen the ?" holding bolt of the distributor so it can be rotated....turn ign on, and rotate the distributor left-to-right back and forth? you should hear the fuel pump prime, and the test light should blink?blinks OK = injectors need replacement?test light blinks NOK = check and perform the salt & pepper connectors fix.... recheck for injectors pulse....if test light doesn't blink = test the injector pulse signal wire for continuity between the injector connector to the ECM connector. The resistance reading should be less/equal to 5 ohms?OK = ECM is kaput, needs to be replaced?NOK = trace and repair wiring harness.

12-vdc Test Light made into a noid light



Make sure you verify the test light is operational with the battery.





   Check the following video clip contribution of 302Army187 showing how to check for injectors pulse per the procedure explained and a 12-vdc test light as a noid light.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pCGmI6rDptU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/pCGmI6rDptU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01</a>


Fuel Pump Circuit  

   Since the fuel pump is not activating, make sure the fuel pump inertia/cutoff switch is not tripped...tripped = reset and repeat fuel pump pressure test....OK = next step.

FYI: The inertia switch is located in the rear lights inside panel...check the pic below.


  Locate the fuel pump relay (for ?86-?90 Mustangs, its location is under the driver seat, for ?91-?93 Mustangs, its location is in the front of the RH strut tower in the engine bay), use the wiring diagrams for your Mustang linked to, in the "Tools" list above. Confirm the relay is not activating by turning ign on,  check for the relay to click ?clicks = probe back of relay connector fuel pump output wire with the test light, turn ign on, if light is off = next step...if light is on = FP wire needs to be traced for an open to the pump....doesn't click = step after the next one.

  Make sure the ?always hot? or 12-vdc power supply wire has voltage with the test light, ign off?light on = replace fuel pump relay?light off = trace and repair open wire or fuse link.

  Check the Ign On voltage wire at the relay, probe back of relay connector, turn ign on?light on = next step.....light off = trace the Ign On wire for an open if it's OK = step after the next one.

  Attach 12-vdc test light clip to a 12vdc source, probe FP signal wire with the test light, while you turn the ign on for priming 2-4 sec pulse, test light should blink...it blinks = replace FP relay....doesn't blink = next step.

   At this stage of the tests, the reason the FP relay is not activating, could be caused by a faulty EEC relay, faulty wiring, or fubar'ed ECM.

   Here is an extract of the fuel pump circuits and a description of the ECM logic to generate the relay "on" pulse.



   The following clip is a little sinopsis of some of the tests explained in this writeup article. Again, thanks to 302Army187 for taking the time and providing it.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/YxLVwcI7WbM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/YxLVwcI7WbM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0xe1600f&amp;color2=0xfebd01</a>


Next we will post the NO Start - ECM NOT Turning On Condition.

Test Light to Noid Light "Conversion" Pictures Courtesy of coilz347 ....
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 09:02:48 am by Joel5.0 » Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gcroix
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 03:56:02 pm »

Hello,

When is the next installation due for an EFI no start condition?  I'm enjoying it!

 Thanx!
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bigbub1968
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 11:05:58 am »

THANKS  for the excelent information Joel, It help me solve a very confusing No start Efi problem last friday....!!again, thanks!
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 11:10:11 am »

Que Pasa!....Anytime...... glad it was of help....now....what was that problem you had?....how did you fix it?...
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
bigbub1968
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1984 GT350 347cid


« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 11:22:46 pm »

The problem that confused me was a 1992 AOD 5.0L Mustang, that presented a poor spark, and wouldn't start.....After doing all your diagnosis procedure, I located the problem on a faulty Alarm module, partially interrupting the signal to the module, and worn out spark plugs......after elimintaing the alarm and installed new plugs, the car started right up!! thanks again for the valuable info!!
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2007, 03:48:26 pm »

NO Start - ECM NOT Turning On Condition

Another reason for an EFI No Start, is that the ECM is not turning on when the key is cycled to the IGN ON position. First you have to ID this is the case. In order to confirm if the ECM is not activating, notice if the fuel pump primes when the key is rotated to IGN ON, if it does prime.....the ECM is turning on.....if it doesn't.....measure for 5 vdc VREF voltage at any of the 3-wire sensors (EVP, TPS or MAP/BP), we will use the TPS for this explanation.

Notice the color of the TPS sensor wires to the sensor side.....GREEN = TPS output signal, BLACK = SIGRTN ground reference and RED or ORANGE = 5 vdc VREF


Sooooo.....let's start with the procedure.


Check for 5 vdc, IGN ON between the RED/ORANGE wire and a good ground like battery (-)......if 5 vdc is present, THE ECM is turning on.....not present.....next!

Check the EEC ground near the battery, it should be attached to the battery (-) or the frame.


Check the EEC relay located on top of the ECM in the passenger kickpanel, make sure it has 12-vdc "always hot" at one of the relay terminals....if not, you need to trace the "always-hot" wire to the correspondent fuselink located in the starter solenoid.


Make sure the IGN ON relay terminal switches to 12-vdc when you turn the ignition key....if not, you either have a wiring open, a bad ignition switch assy., or an open fuselink.

Make sure pin #1 at the ECM connector has 12-vdc "always hot", and that pins 37 and 57 have 12-vdc when the key is switched to IGN ON otherwise, you have an open fuselink, or an open wire between the EEC relay and the ECM connector.

Also check pins 20, 40 and 60 at the ECM connector to ground (resistance check).....if you have >5Ω resistance to a good ground reference point, the ground wires have an open somewhere.

If all the above checks OK.....the ECM is fubar..... I'm sorry


* TPS_Sensor.jpg (7.61 KB, 400x150 - viewed 29063 times.)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:14:03 pm by Joel5.0 » Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
Tubo(2-bo)
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2008, 12:38:32 pm »

Thanks Joel, With much drama I got the mustang home last night.
LUK follow through.... The Hi Press FP connective hose had deteriorated-hardened-shrunk, and come loose from the pump enough to bleed off most of the fuel pressure. Replacing this & hot wiring the coil enables us to limp the car home, last night.



 I'll continue with the "EFI nostart" procedures, and eliminate the remainng faults. Like no power to the coil in run.

Corky
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Tubo(2-bo)
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 12:32:26 pm »

Joel, one thing that was pointed out to me on another forum, by a person who is generaly recognised as having soilid information.
 Specifically, using carb cleaner as a starting fluid on EFI cars was bad, because the carb cleaner attacked the O2 sensors, leading to their failure. Just passing this along as a FWIW.
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 12:49:38 pm »

Joel, one thing that was pointed out to me on another forum, by a person who is generaly recognised as having soilid information.
 Specifically, using carb cleaner as a starting fluid on EFI cars was bad, because the carb cleaner attacked the O2 sensors, leading to their failure. Just passing this along as a FWIW.
Nope.....all current carburetor cleaners have to be "O2 Sensor Safe", along with the other chemicals that could affect their performance, like RTV + it would go against a few TSB's (Ford, GM, etc) that require to clean the TB with carb cleaner w/out having to remove the O2 sensors. I've even used it to clean O2 sensors to bring them back to operation.
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
irish
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 09:46:55 pm »

I'd love to see a sticky on tracking down a weak spark condition, especially when it involves an MSD box.  I have a hard start issue currently that has me abit puzzled.

Matt
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1988 GT converted to mass air, 73mm C&L, cobra upper/lower, 24s, windsor junior heads, equal shorties, h-pipe, msd 6al, e-cam, fenderwell cai, 3.73s, t-5, Saleen clone...
Duncan_McDougal
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2009, 11:33:46 pm »

Place ignition key in on, with the 12-vdc test light connected to a good ground, probe the (-) terminal at the coil (Tan/Yellow wire)...test light off  = replace coil, test light on = next step.

  Place ignition key in on, with the 12-vdc test light connected to a good ground, probe the (-) terminal at the coil (Tan/Yellow wire), rotate distributor left-right-left and check test light...test light blinks  = replace coil....test light on = next step.

No Fuel Condition.......stay tuned...otherwise......


The tan/yellow wire you speak of is located on the ignition coil correct?  If it is, my car has a green/yellow wire.  Am I mistaken or is the color of the wire just different?

When I probe this wire while turning the distributor the voltage will drop to 0 and then go back to 12v; also the fuel pump will cycle (prime) like I turned the key form the off to the run position.  The fuel pump also does this when I don't probe the wire too.
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liljoe07
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2009, 11:44:57 pm »

two wires on the Coil, whats the other ones color?
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89 Coupe:
302- Canfield 195's, Jay Allen Cam, Holley Systemax II, Comp Cams 1.6's,75mm TB & MAF, 24lb Inj, 4.56's, 3" Exhaust, 3" Spintechs, QuarterHorse, BE/EA

Well since you friggin disagree with every damn suggestion, just rebuild the piece of shit.
liljoe07
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2009, 11:47:15 pm »

Some year cars can have different color wires
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89 Coupe:
302- Canfield 195's, Jay Allen Cam, Holley Systemax II, Comp Cams 1.6's,75mm TB & MAF, 24lb Inj, 4.56's, 3" Exhaust, 3" Spintechs, QuarterHorse, BE/EA

Well since you friggin disagree with every damn suggestion, just rebuild the piece of shit.
Duncan_McDougal
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 12:16:46 am »

two wires on the Coil, whats the other ones color?

The other one look like red and blue, unless I am blue/green color blind.  Grin  Do you know if a faulty ignition coil could cause this fuel pump cycling issue?

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