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Author Topic: 351W Game Plan  (Read 3049 times)
knucklefux
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« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2017, 10:06:54 pm »

if you stick with the stock iron heads, you'd be doing great to hit 300hp, maybe 350.  stock e7 heads (assuming that's what's on it) aren't very good for performance.  gt40s are a little better but still not ideal for anything performance oriented.

since your initial plan was to buy heads, i really suggest upping the budget to get some heads that will get the job done.  high ports are a great choice, with the cnc'd ones being even better (to a point). 

then again, you're not looking to set the pavement on fire...maybe disregard that bit lol.  some trick flow 11r are a great choice and not too spendy.
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95 gt-R.I.P.
2004 cobra-needs more boost
juiced coupe
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« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2017, 10:53:40 pm »

I have given serious thought to keeping everything stock and just doing a rebuild with a cam and intake change.  What kind of hp could I get with that approach?

if you stick with the stock iron heads, you'd be doing great to hit 300hp, maybe 350.  stock e7 heads (assuming that's what's on it) aren't very good for performance.


In full street dress with accessories and exhaust, I suspect that it would be closer to a real 250-260 hp. With a four speed, it'd still be fun-ish to drive.

Now keep in mind that any performance cam will need a valve spring upgrade, and the heads will likely need some refreshing. You need to think about that before you throw hundreds of dollars at a set of useless heads.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
joerberg
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« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2017, 09:15:57 am »

All good points and well understood.  I gave the stock rebuild with a cam and intake change a thought but I'm not really going down that path.  That was my cheap side talking.  As Knucklefux points out, I'm not looking to set the pavement of fire but I do hope to warm it up a little.

I'm still in the planning stage and have most of the parts picked out.  When I'm actually ready to place orders I'll post what I think are my final choices again to get final comments.

Thanks for all the feedback.  It's much appreciated.
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knucklefux
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« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2017, 01:02:35 pm »

this is what i know, based on my personal experience:

whatever performance level you get your ride to will be exciting.  at first.  then the "moar power" bug starts creeeping in.  because of this, i either aim for more than i think i want OR buy parts that will allow me to increase the power without replacing the high dollar stuff.

case in point-heads.  if i had a good running 351w, i would probably freshen the rings & bearings, then buy a top end that would support a stout 408 and get a cam to go with the 351 setup.  then when it came time for a rebuild, or that nasty "moar power" bug bit me, all i'd need would be a new rotating assembly and cam.  to do the 408 short block and the top end to support it all at one time would put the project into "extreme long term" status for me because i can't just plop down $5k+ all at once.  doing it systematically in such a way that i can maximize performance at each stage is my new approach.

every single time i've tried to save money or cut corners, i've been disappointed.  i try to help others avoid that if i can.
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95 gt-R.I.P.
2004 cobra-needs more boost
joerberg
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« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2017, 03:18:02 pm »

With 61cc heads, -5cc pistons, stock piston clearance and.035" gasket I'm getting 11.75:1 which is higher than what I was looking for.  I was thinking around 10:1 as the upper limit.  Am i being too conservative? 'd have to have +8cc pistons to get 10:1.
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juiced coupe
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« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2017, 04:31:45 pm »

Most commonly available gaskets for Windsors are .040-.047" compressed thickness. One of the best value head gaskets is the  Fel-Pro 9333, which is .047".

With a. 047" gasket and the pistons at zero deck, I get 10.6. It would actually be slightly lower, due to the ring lands.

Its also worth noting that you have to cut the hell out of the deck of late model Windsor blocks to get zero deck. Anything lower will also reduce compression, as well as increasing the quench distance.

The general consensus is that the quench distance should be .035-.055", with .060" being the most for a N/A engine.

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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
joerberg
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« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2017, 08:41:53 pm »

I've got a disconnect here.  I'm looking at the compression calculator on the Summit website and with stock rod length, stock deck height, - 5 cc pistons with stock 1.774" compression height I get a piston to deck clearance of .023" giving me 11.4:1 with a .047" gasket.  Using a zero deck clearance I get 12.1:1.  What am I missing?

If I figure on a .047" gasket and .023" deck clearance the total quench distance would be .070".  Correct?  And lastly, am I being overly conservative trying to keep the CR around 10:1?
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al2
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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2017, 08:49:31 pm »

What kind of fuel do you plan on running ? I have been gathering parts for a street car build. 408 Windsor with 192 high ports I have. I have been thinking about running e85 and have compression at 12.5 to one.
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juiced coupe
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« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2017, 09:14:39 pm »

I've got a disconnect here.  I'm looking at the compression calculator on the Summit website and with stock rod length, stock deck height, - 5 cc pistons with stock 1.774" compression height I get a piston to deck clearance of .023" giving me 11.4:1 with a .047" gasket.  Using a zero deck clearance I get 12.1:1.  What am I missing?

If I figure on a .047" gasket and .023" deck clearance the total quench distance would be .070".  Correct?  And lastly, am I being overly conservative trying to keep the CR around 10:1?

In that calculator, a negative piston volume equals a dome piston. Meaning that it subtracts volume from the chamber.

Yes, that would be correct on the quench.

With a properly designed cam, somewhat higher compression ratio are usable with pump gas.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
347HO
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I believe they landed on the moon.


« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2017, 11:31:03 pm »

Aluminum heads set up correctly and a good to great tune can take 1pt more ratio also.
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
Ammosteve
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2017, 07:02:11 am »

I've got a disconnect here.  I'm looking at the compression calculator on the Summit website and with stock rod length, stock deck height, - 5 cc pistons with stock 1.774" compression height I get a piston to deck clearance of .023" giving me 11.4:1 with a .047" gasket.  Using a zero deck clearance I get 12.1:1.  What am I missing?

If I figure on a .047" gasket and .023" deck clearance the total quench distance would be .070".  Correct?  And lastly, am I being overly conservative trying to keep the CR around 10:1?

The Wallace calculator shows 10 to 1 compression using 4.03 bore, 3.5 stroke, 61 cc chamber, 6.6 cc valve relief (standard) .041 thick head gasket with 4.100 bore and piston in the hole .023.
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joerberg
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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2017, 08:24:51 am »

I'm going to run pump gas and I don't care about mileage and I don't care if it needs high octane.  As I stated earlier, this car probably won't see more than 2,000 miles per year.

So, bottom line - is 10:1 overly conservative?
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juiced coupe
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2017, 10:51:05 am »

So, bottom line - is 10:1 overly conservative?

Sorry for the vague answer, but it depends.

The fact that you have a decently light car, manual transmission, and lower rear gearing reduces load on the engine and makes it less likely to run into detonation.

The cam can also make or break this. Done correctly, and you could probably run 11.5:1 with pump gas. Done wrong, and you might struggle with 9.5:1.

This is why I suggested getting the custom cam done, preferably by someone who is very familiar with SBFs.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
joerberg
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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2017, 01:47:50 pm »

I'm thinking custom grind on the cam once I have the gearing and tire size nailed down.  Any recommendations on a source?
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z-adamson
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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2017, 02:05:17 pm »

I'm going to run pump gas....

 I don't care if it needs high octane...

How can you not care if it needs high octane and run pump gas?

Pump gas is hardly high octane and if you need high octane and run pump gas then don't plan on the pistons having a long life.
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