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Author Topic: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?  (Read 6104 times)
knucklefux
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 11:23:18 pm »

WOT isn't an RPM, it's wide open throttle...therefore it's when the max load is on the engine for a given rpm.

it doesn't have to be some amalgamation of every fucking car out there.  i'd like to see some same day dyno numbers with mechanical and electric pumps to get some real world data...but i don't care enough to do it myself. 

not really a fan of your judgement, so your observations are not really a consideration. 

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z-adamson
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2017, 11:05:36 am »

WOT isn't an RPM, it's wide open throttle...therefore it's when the max load is on the engine for a given rpm.

it doesn't have to be some amalgamation of every fucking car out there.  i'd like to see some same day dyno numbers with mechanical and electric pumps to get some real world data...but i don't care enough to do it myself. 

not really a fan of your judgement, so your observations are not really a consideration. 



Throttle position and engine load have nothing to do with parasitic loss at the water pump. RPM has everything to do with parasitic loss at the water pump. Which makes me wonder why you would want to see how much HP It takes to spin the pump at WOT. As RPM varies, how much HP it takes to spin the pump varies, although there wont be much difference till after 5KRPM most of the time. Wether or not the throttle plates are wide open means nothing here. How much the engine is loaded means nothere here as well.
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2017, 01:21:35 pm »

Don't late model Corvettes use electric water pumps?
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knucklefux
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2017, 10:34:12 pm »

you win z.

i'm dumb.  you're always right.  i don't know why we don't all just do exactly what you do and think exactly how you think.
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 11:39:53 pm »

I believe that BMWs use a electric water pump.
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2017, 07:20:41 am »

That looked like some of the conversations I used to have with my x-wife
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knucklefux
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2017, 12:36:54 pm »

i bet your ex wife has better tits though.
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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2017, 08:33:29 am »

30 years ago maybe. Now? Who knows.
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2017, 09:27:24 am »

My thinking, although others here have vastly more experience than I do...

For a straight comparison between mechanical and electric, the mechanical should win for efficiency (coolant flow per hp consumed).  Mechanical pumps directly convert crank speed to coolant flow, where the electric pump has to convert crank to electricity, then electricity back to coolant flow through the pump motor.  More conversions of power equal more efficiency losses.

Unless... pump speed can be controlled to exactly what it needs to be through a variable speed controller (similar to variable speed fan control).
In this case, you aren't stuck with running the pump at engine speed... you can truly control the coolant flow rate based on engine needs (regardless of rpm).

then again, this is regarding efficiency of the system... which may not relate to hp/acceleration ability, and ignores the fact that the alt/battery can create electricity when it isn't needed, storing it for when it is needed.
I think the battery is another advantage to the electric pump system, which is easy to overlook.

first to admit, all just theory... I too would like to see some data, but don't have the drive/time to go looking for it...

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z-adamson
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2017, 07:27:09 pm »

My thinking, although others here have vastly more experience than I do...

For a straight comparison between mechanical and electric, the mechanical should win for efficiency (coolant flow per hp consumed).  Mechanical pumps directly convert crank speed to coolant flow, where the electric pump has to convert crank to electricity, then electricity back to coolant flow through the pump motor.  More conversions of power equal more efficiency losses.

Unless... pump speed can be controlled to exactly what it needs to be through a variable speed controller (similar to variable speed fan control).
In this case, you aren't stuck with running the pump at engine speed... you can truly control the coolant flow rate based on engine needs (regardless of rpm).

Even with a controller used to vary the speed of an electric pump, it is still an inefficient system for the reasons we both touched on.....coolant flow per hp consumed. Alternators are only 60ish percent efficient, no way around that.

The big advantage I see is that the electric pump can be turned off completely. Seems a good thing in a drag race. Turn it off for however many seconds it takes to finish the 1/4 or 1/8, then turn it on.
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2017, 07:34:26 pm »

you win z.

i'm dumb.  you're always right.  i don't know why we don't all just do exactly what you do and think exactly how you think.

A logical explanation on your part would go a long ways.

The relationship between engine load and parasitic loss at the water pump. I am curious to see what you come up with, if anything at all.

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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2017, 07:50:22 pm »

Wouldn't an electric pump coupled with a WOT alternator cut off switch be the winning combo?  Add to that the ability to cool an engine when it's not running.  Assuming reliability is comparable, it seems like a nobrainer.
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knucklefux
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2017, 10:23:07 pm »

A logical explanation on your part would go a long ways.

The relationship between engine load and parasitic loss at the water pump. I am curious to see what you come up with, if anything at all.


it's fucking hilarious that you think that i owe you an explanation.

however, i'm going to do it here just because.  it's not going to be a habit, and i'm rapidly getting out of the habit of replying to your idiocy at all.

the reason that WOT, therefore max engine load, is important for determining the difference between the losses is that it eliminates a variable.  the HP an engine makes isn't consistent throughout the rev range...it makes less HP at lower load.  any properly scientific test will eliminate as many variables as is reasonably possible.

if you look at the hp cost of both pump setups at a specific rpm, you will get a different reading at steady state than you will at WOT.

now, if you knew a goddamn thing or bothered to actually learn rather than argue and just spout off your random opinions on what you "logically" conclude, i wouldn't have to go into all of that.  if you have questions that you would like answered, you should try asking the questions instead of being such a contrary cocksucker.  unfortunately, you think that you're entitled to answers which makes people REALLY not want to give them.

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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 09:13:37 am »

I have used meziere 50 gal/h pump on a 408w with so far good success. The main reason of ditching the mechanical belt driven pump was, due to its habit of throwing a belt when ever I reached 7000 rpm. Now when the belt runs only the alternator, no issues.

The cooling of engine is not improved when water flow speed is increased, after certain level. With high rpm operation pump just cavitates and makes cooling inefficient.

Turning the pump does not give any benefit on dragstrip. You will still be charging the battery, and alternator will draw the same amperage. Turn of your alternator and you may see some benefit...

For me it has worked just fine, and I have not have any issues with cooling, as long as the electrical fan is running as it should. These big fans draw current from25 to 30 Amps, which is matter not to be overlooked. They sometimes burn the 30 Amp mega-fuse I have, and then it starts to get hot in traffic lights...
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2017, 09:41:30 am »

Here are some of the things that I've seen, noticed, or found during research.

It takes less than 2 hp of engine HP for an alternator to supply 60 amps. That is ~5-8X what most electric water pumps draw.

There isn't a pulley ratio available that is optimal at 2000 rpm and 8000rpm. If you are optimized for crushing in traffic, it will be over-spinning at 4X the speed. And this is where the high rpm power loss comes in.

Trying to run setups made for street use at high rpm has problems:

-The increased load is prone to slinging belts off. Yes, deep pulleys can help.

-The pumps aren't made to turn that high. I've seen more than a few mechanical pumps blow the housing gaskets when used at high rpm. This tells me that they are likely cavitating, and doing more harm than good.


Race situations are another story. Their cooling systems are designed to work within the constraints that they run under. This doesn't mean that they would be optimal on a street car.
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