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Author Topic: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?  (Read 6107 times)
82-GT
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« on: September 14, 2017, 12:57:31 pm »

This is the one. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mez-wp373u/overview/make/ford
Trying to cut down on parasitic loss and the water pump seems to be a biggy.
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347HO
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2017, 02:13:54 pm »

IMO based on physics...
You are moving the load from a mech pump to the alternator switching to an electric pump.

A good solution is to consider the STE 14000 pump (normal rotation) or its alternate for reverse rotation.

The above is for street driven app.  Drag app I would use electric on a on/off switch.
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
82-GT
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 02:21:33 pm »

Thanks for your reply. You are correct of coarse but I can switch off the electric pump during the run but I can't the mechanical one. It's a street car so that's why I picked this pump. Probably would have been a good idea to give this info in the original post but I'm not that smart some times.
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82-GT
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 02:29:49 pm »

The pump you posted does look to be a better alternative. guess I'll have to rethink my options.
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z-adamson
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 04:31:01 pm »

IMO based on physics...
You are moving the load from a mech pump to the alternator switching to an electric pump.

The most generic, unspecific answer to a question I have seen in a LONG time.

How exactly does all this "physics" play out though?

The load from the mechanical pump is there as long as the engine is running. The load being transferred to the to the engine from the water pump pully via a belt which is about 98% efficient.

The load from the electric pump is there only when there is 12volts and a good ground at the pump. The load is at the alternator which is only about 65% efficient which is driven by a belt which is about 98% efficient.

So in theory, an electric water pump could be less efficient than a mechanical pump. BUT, you get the benefit of turning on and off the electric water pump when the engine is running via the flip of a switch, a luxury you don't have with the mechanical pump.
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juiced coupe
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 04:51:39 pm »

The electric pump also runs at a steady rate, instead of increasing with engine rpm. Spinning the mechanical pump at high rpms is bound to take some power.

For me, the benefits of the electric pump had more to do with cooling down between passes.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
347HO
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 09:17:01 pm »

I want to believe if electric pumps where better at any rpm, NASCAR would be using them, but they aren't currently.

More importantly is the application.
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
knucklefux
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 09:41:23 pm »

nascar not using them could just be a matter of rules though.

i'd like to see the math on how much HP it takes to spin the water pump at WOT vs how much HP it takes to spin the alternator w/electric water pump vs. without the electric water pump.

without actual data, it's hard to give an accurate answer.

if these data exist, i'd like to see them.
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95 gt-R.I.P.
2004 cobra-needs more boost
347HO
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 01:57:21 am »

Mine came with data from the cup car it was tested on.
5hp at 9000rpm 1:1 ratio.
3/4" orifice.

I'd put money down an electric can't even keep up with that much heat.
Now turn up the voltage (use more amps) and if you can keep it from cavitating...  Again, I put money down its gonna be close to same loss but less efficient cooling.

I would need the amp rating of the pump and how much it flows to convert to hp required vs efficiency if you still want your facts.
Logged




... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
juiced coupe
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 05:49:59 am »

My drive kit pulls 7 amps and turns my Edelbrock pump at 2100 rpm.

Whatever that converts to, it keeps my car cool on the hottest days in the south.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
z-adamson
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 02:48:03 pm »

The electric pump also runs at a steady rate, instead of increasing with engine rpm. Spinning the mechanical pump at high rpms is bound to take some power.

That could be a blessing or a curse. At high rpm you need more cooling capacity so a pump that spins faster as RPM increases might not be a bad thing.
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juiced coupe
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The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 02:58:19 pm »

The electric pump also runs at a steady rate, instead of increasing with engine rpm. Spinning the mechanical pump at high rpms is bound to take some power.

That could be a blessing or a curse. At high rpm you need more cooling capacity so a pump that spins faster as RPM increases might not be a bad thing.

I don't disagree.

But IMHO, any application that needs that amount of flow shouldn't even consider an electric pump. But I think a lot of people get caught up in numbers.

There are pros and cons to each setup. People just need to decide what features better suit their needs.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
347HO
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Section Moderator
Big Block
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12850


Location: Seattle, Washington
I believe they landed on the moon.


« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 03:39:52 pm »

Yah...  Definitely application is paramount.
Logged




... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
Global Moderator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8394


Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 04:42:56 pm »

Yah...  Definitely application is paramount.

To be honest, I'm not sure where you'd draw the line.

A quick Google search turned up several cases of people using the better electric pumps on road race cars. While I understand that a 20 minute heat race in a 350-400 hp car isn't the same as a Cup race, I still thought it was impressive.

I couldn't count the number of street cars I've seen with them. And we all know how bad traffic can be on cars that are more strip than street.

Then there is the reliability aspect. Mechanical pumps have proven themselves, while the electric pumps have had some ups and downs. But people seem to be doing well with the high end pumps.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
z-adamson
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Big Block
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 07:19:35 pm »

nascar not using them could just be a matter of rules though.

i'd like to see the math on how much HP it takes to spin the water pump at WOT vs how much HP it takes to spin the alternator w/electric water pump vs. without the electric water pump.

without actual data, it's hard to give an accurate answer.

if these data exist, i'd like to see them.

Parasitic loss relative to RPM is no simple matter. Pulley ratio, belt design, pulley weight, mechanical pump impeller and bearing design. Some water pumps flow more coolant per revolution than others and that means more parasitic loss.

And what RPM is WOT? That may differ engine to engine.

Any data out there would be a ballpark figure at best using averages for all the unknown variables. Either that or the data is application specific and only applies to that combo.

My observations have led me to believe that eliminating the mechanical pump will "free up" about 4hp-8hp most of which is seen at higher rpm (upwards of 5K RPM).
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