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Author Topic: Creative small block build ideas  (Read 12865 times)
IndianaJones
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2017, 10:36:20 am »

In all honesty, how much power are you wanting to make? And what are your goals?
I don't have a set number, I'd like the most streetable hp I can get out of the build, I'm hoping I can do at least stock LS1 numbers or just more than 1hp/ci. If I can get to 500hp, it would be awesome.

The 5.0L explorers had GT-40/GT-40P heads.
We never got V8 Explorer's over here, only 1 run of RHD V6 Explorer's around 1997/98

We received regular American production SBF’s over here until around 1968, and Australian production SBF’s from around 1968 to 1978, and a 5.0 HO for one model in 1984/85, and that’s about it. Here and there you find some odd models, which were personal imports, but that’s about it.
Would those have been Basil Green XR8s?
Is this the IndianaJones from AMC?  Good to see you here,  and listen to these guys,
most have forgotten more than I'll ever remember...
Hi, yes Steve, how is it going, and with the Merkur's and Capri's? Didn't you have a barnfind 2 door 57 Fairlane?
I am referring to the XR8 Sierra, but it was a Ford SA homologation special, the Basil Green creations is the Perana's.
I am taking everything the guys are saying to heart.
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CDW6212R
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 11:01:41 am »

The Clevor is the best bet if you are set on used parts, and can locate the 4V closed chamber heads, plus a good open Clevor intake. That intake is the tough part, they made so few that you would have to begin there. Without the intake, the engine can't be built. Find something decent for that open intake(the higher the advertised rpm range the better). You can fit Windsor cranks that size the displacement to work best with the intake you find. If you can't find anything but the smaller intakes, then you stick with the stock Windsor 3.5" crank. The bigger intakes would let you run a 4.0" stroke, and the stock Windsor crank has been turned to 4.0" many times before. I had a friend in the late 80's who had done it a few times back in the early 80's, for his 69 Mustang and a 68 Bronco.

The 4V Cleveland heads don't like everyday driving at low rpm's, they love high rpm's. So if you go that route, aim for the best valvetrain and a custom cam. That'll make the engine sing, and feeding it with the carb/intake will be your adjustment and upkeep.

You may find the Australian 2V heads also, which work well also, better still than any stock Ford head but the 4V head. Those came on 302's but will support 351-400CI easily. Those are on eBay a lot here.
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Don

1991 Mark VII LSC Special Edition, soon to be OBDII and 4R70W, then GTC body kit and 347.
1998 Mountaineer, plans for A4WD and KB 2200 blower later, XP8 parts, paint and a 332.
1973 Ranchero and 72 Sport front end ...will be a 351 Clevor, EFI and 4R70W.
IndianaJones
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2017, 11:26:18 am »

Could a single throttle body, sheetmetal tunnel ram intake, with the right cam grind, on a 4V Clevor be streetable on pump gas?
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Outlaw Bill
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2017, 11:36:22 am »

Could a single throttle body, sheetmetal tunnel ram intake, with the right cam grind, on a 4V Clevor be streetable on pump gas?
Yes.
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CDW6212R
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 04:18:00 pm »

Could a single throttle body, sheetmetal tunnel ram intake, with the right cam grind, on a 4V Clevor be streetable on pump gas?
Yes.

Good answer, and maybe the best option for an intake. The Clevor never got much attention from the aftermarket, thus no easy intake options.

Off thought/comment, I recall that TFS made a Clevor lower EFI intake. Can you work with the "R" series EFI intakes they produce, they call them a 2500-7500 rpm range intake? Here's the silver version of it with 90mm inlet;https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-51600117

On Summit, ouch, $800; https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51600117/overview/
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Don

1991 Mark VII LSC Special Edition, soon to be OBDII and 4R70W, then GTC body kit and 347.
1998 Mountaineer, plans for A4WD and KB 2200 blower later, XP8 parts, paint and a 332.
1973 Ranchero and 72 Sport front end ...will be a 351 Clevor, EFI and 4R70W.
knucklefux
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2017, 10:24:46 pm »

could make a 302 cleveland intake work too if those are available there...

i must reiterate the fact that trying to build a "vintage" sbf to run with modern LS stuff is a recipe for failure unless you get real lucky at the junk yard.
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95 gt-R.I.P.
2004 cobra-needs more boost
IndianaJones
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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2017, 09:21:41 am »

...trying to build a "vintage" sbf to run with modern LS stuff is a recipe for failure...
That would be cool, knuckle, but I promise I won't focus on that too much, will just put together the best parts I can get my hands on.

So it has been generally accepted that the best heads in this instance would be the 4V Cleveland heads. Which heads would be in 2nd place, the Australian 2V heads, or early 351W heads?

Does the 351M/400, also suffer from oiling problems at high rpms, like the 351C? Or is it fine with it's Windsor sized main bearing journals?
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I.C.E
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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2017, 11:24:07 am »

If you're ok with boost, then Bone stock 351w + on3 turbo kit might be the cheapest way to go.
500whp should be no problem.

Some examples in this thread:
 http://forums.corral.net/forums/turbochargers/1783777-turbo-351w-hp-guess.html
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I.C.E - I.nternal C.ombustion E.ngine

1995 GT    ... work in progress ...
| Factory 302 SB | 195 Canfields | RPM2 Intake | CI Cam | Probe Shafts 1.6 | 80mm PMAS | 39# Inj | Tweecer R/T | Mac LTs 1 3/4 | Pro chamber 3" | Mac Cat-back 3" |
knucklefux
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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2017, 03:16:07 pm »

The 351m/400m mainly suffers from really shitty performance due to emissions requirements.  They're very similar to Cleveland engines, just with comically undersized ports.

Seems to me that your best bet is a high compression solid lift 302 that you rev the snot out of.
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95 gt-R.I.P.
2004 cobra-needs more boost
CDW6212R
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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2017, 03:58:00 pm »

The 400 and 351M are the same family as the Cleveland, 335 series I think it is. Those have 2V heads that are all open chamber(76cc or more), plus emissions bumps in the exhaust ports.

The head choice is the power limiter, no stock Windsor head can touch a Cleveland head. Only the high dollar aftermarket Windsor heads can compete, and those start at over $1500.

I think all of the Australian Cleveland heads are 2V closed chamber.
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Don

1991 Mark VII LSC Special Edition, soon to be OBDII and 4R70W, then GTC body kit and 347.
1998 Mountaineer, plans for A4WD and KB 2200 blower later, XP8 parts, paint and a 332.
1973 Ranchero and 72 Sport front end ...will be a 351 Clevor, EFI and 4R70W.
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
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The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2017, 02:56:37 pm »

Does the 351M/400, also suffer from oiling problems at high rpms, like the 351C? Or is it fine with it's Windsor sized main bearing journals?

I believe that they share the 351C oiling system designed but have the same 3" mains as a Windsor. So, its kind of a double whammy.

There are external oil line modifications that can be made to the 400 block. You could also experiment with different oil restrictions, but those tend to be better with solid valvetrain race engines.

You will also need to verify adequate bearing clearance. Those large diameter journals require more clearance than most are accustomed to using.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
CDW6212R
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2017, 08:48:56 pm »

If he was closer, I'd make him a deal on a 400 block I had worked on in the late 80's. I was doing a 69 Mustang and thought ... Boss 408. About $350 later, the block had four bolt mains and screw in freeze plugs. The machinist lost the crank and vandalism ruined the car, which was already rough when I got it. I'm not sure what to do with such a block now, given the parts we have available today. The Milodon main caps do look cool though.
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Don

1991 Mark VII LSC Special Edition, soon to be OBDII and 4R70W, then GTC body kit and 347.
1998 Mountaineer, plans for A4WD and KB 2200 blower later, XP8 parts, paint and a 332.
1973 Ranchero and 72 Sport front end ...will be a 351 Clevor, EFI and 4R70W.
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
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Big Block
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Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2017, 10:26:58 am »

If he was closer, I'd make him a deal on a 400 block I had worked on in the late 80's.

If he was closer, this whole thread would be irrelevant.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
CDW6212R
Big Block
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Posts: 2466


Location: Knoxville, TN.

« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2017, 03:09:43 pm »

If he was closer, I'd make him a deal on a 400 block I had worked on in the late 80's.

If he was closer, this whole thread would be irrelevant.

Yes,  and here the 400 block is also irrelevant. Why build an engine that's 100lbs+ heavier than a Windsor, plus intakes are scarce and not very good.
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Don

1991 Mark VII LSC Special Edition, soon to be OBDII and 4R70W, then GTC body kit and 347.
1998 Mountaineer, plans for A4WD and KB 2200 blower later, XP8 parts, paint and a 332.
1973 Ranchero and 72 Sport front end ...will be a 351 Clevor, EFI and 4R70W.
289nate
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2017, 12:06:29 pm »

You're not going to mimic a super stock build and be anywhere remotely close to a budget build.  Those legal 289 heads are going to cost a fortune from a top notch shop done up to be competitive.  There is FAR more to those engines than the parts list.  Alex Dennysenko who races "Moneymaker" once discussed the cost for his "stock" 289 heads set up to race (from BES I believe.  You're talking high end aftermarket money. 

The only heads factory heads that can make decent power without a ton of work are the Cleveland heads.  4v closed chamber or 2v closed chamber (Aussie heads) would be what I'd look into.  Could work if you can fabricate an intake to avoid the cost of buying aftermarket with the extra fees you'll run into.

You mentioned a turbo and that a guy is importing used 5.4L engines.  This is the way to go for street friendly big power, probably ease of getting running, reliability, and likely cost.  You loose the vintage cool engine and engine building experience.  I'd look into what guys are doing with stock 5.4L engines and a turbo on the fuel you plan to use.



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\'65 fastback pump gas 289, 4.56 gears, and faceplated T5.  11.123 at 122.4
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