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Author Topic: pertronix and summit CD box  (Read 2095 times)
cheapbastard
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« on: April 16, 2017, 08:16:56 pm »

I have added a Summit CDI box (SUM-850611/200 MJ) to my existing pertronix Ignitor converted points distributor with a MSD blaster II HVC coil (8251, which is what Summit calls for).  I have wired it according to the Summit instructions but have no spark.  The summit directions (which mimic the msd 6al directions word for word) have wiring directions for a pertronix ignitor.  However, this CD box is equivalent to an MSD 7al which generally only works with magnetic trigger.

I have checked the wiring about 10 times and am fairly certain I have it wired the correct way.  This uses the small red box wire to 12v ignition (NO RESISTOR WIRE) to the pertronix red and the small white cd box wire to the Black pertronix wire.  The magnetic pickup wires are not used.  The orange and black go to the coil.

When I turn on the ignition the LED light comes on (as it is supposed to) but when I crank it goes out.  From what I understand it is supposed to light up everytime it receives a trigger signal.  My thought is it is not getting a trigger signal from the Ignitor.

Any thoughts?  This is in the vehicle in my signature and avatar.  65 mustang carbureted small block.
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It sucks to get old but at least the expectations are lower...
65 mustang coupe, 10.4 compression 306, home ported 180 cc Chinese heads, funnel web, Lunati Voodoo Solid flat cam, t5z, 8 inch with 4.62 gears in a locker.
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2017, 09:02:05 pm »

Do you have the cranking ignition circuit from the solenoid hooked up? If not, you will not have power during cranking.

Newer cars do this at the ignition switch. Older cars used the "I" terminal on the solenoid to bypass the ballast resistor (or wire) and provide 12V to the ignition during cranking.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
cheapbastard
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Location: Michigan

« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 08:44:21 am »

Do you have the cranking ignition circuit from the solenoid hooked up? If not, you will not have power during cranking.

Newer cars do this at the ignition switch. Older cars used the "I" terminal on the solenoid to bypass the ballast resistor (or wire) and provide 12V to the ignition during cranking.
Juiced, thanks for the reply.  I am not using the "I" terminal.  I never used it with the point distributor, or with the Pertronix conversion.  When I bypassed the resistor wire I hooked a wire directly into the ignition/keyed switch.  The resistance in these old mustangs was a pink resistance wire and I hooked into the same place it was hooked but with normal heavy wire.  This wire now feeds the 12 volt keyed feed for the ignition box and the red wire on the pertronix.  Thanks for any help or ideas!  Next step is I am going to buy a MSD billet distributor and be done with it!
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It sucks to get old but at least the expectations are lower...
65 mustang coupe, 10.4 compression 306, home ported 180 cc Chinese heads, funnel web, Lunati Voodoo Solid flat cam, t5z, 8 inch with 4.62 gears in a locker.
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
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Big Block
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Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 11:03:40 am »

Have you actually checked voltage at that wire? With the switch on and during cranking?

If there is any significant voltage drop during cranking, it may be dropping below the ignition boxes threshold.

I'm pretty sure that the Pertronix module has a fairly wide voltage operating range, however most ignition boxes don't like low voltage.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
cheapbastard
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Location: Michigan

« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 12:06:36 pm »

So I did try running a second wire from the "I" terminal on the solenoid to the wire red wire on the Pertronix and  subsequently also the small red for the CD box.  No dice!  However, with just the wire coming from the ignition switch I hooked up a spark tester and I do get intermittent spark while cranking, just not consistent.  I also get light on the Led suggesting it is being triggered.  So my guess now is I am looking at bad connections such as the ground.  I got the intermittent spark after I moved my ground.  The battery is in the trunk in this car so I originally grounded the CD box to my scattershield.  I got the intermittent spark when I moved the ground to an intake bolt.  So how sensitive are these to ground?  The instructions sugggest grounding right to negative terminal of the battery.  Should I run a long heavy wire to the negative terminal? or perhaps try to find an area right on the block?  Any suggestions welcomed Asking  thanks, Larry the cheap bastard
Logged

It sucks to get old but at least the expectations are lower...
65 mustang coupe, 10.4 compression 306, home ported 180 cc Chinese heads, funnel web, Lunati Voodoo Solid flat cam, t5z, 8 inch with 4.62 gears in a locker.
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
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Big Block
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Posts: 8206


Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 01:11:29 pm »

Ignition boxes are very sensitive to the primary connections. MSD recommends connecting them directly to the battery.

I've actually had a bad ground fry one before. Luckily, MSD was able to repair it.

While mine isn't connected to the battery right now, it is grounded to the frame at the same place as the engine ground.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
cheapbastard
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Posts: 74


Location: Michigan

« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 06:49:05 pm »

So I called the Summit tech line about my issues.  He was surprised that my instructions called for MSD coil 8251.  He gave me a troubleshooting routine to follow.  Before I tried anything I added another engine to chassis ground from the head to the frame.  I also tried my old Supercoil to see if it was my new coild and no difference although it did seem I was consistently getting a trigger signal.  After following their instructions which called for removing the coil wire, disconnecting the heavy power and ground connections and attempting to ground the white wire to the engine, the consensus is that the box is junk.

So Summit wants to send me a brand new one which I initially agreed to.  With some time to think I am wondering if I should just get my money back.
Any thoughts from folks who have done this?  I ran my pertronix converted dual point dist and super coil for years until I added a point and half of compression and a modern cam.  Now that I have the super duper MSD coil I am stuck with a CD box but I'm a bit leery of the Summit box.
Logged

It sucks to get old but at least the expectations are lower...
65 mustang coupe, 10.4 compression 306, home ported 180 cc Chinese heads, funnel web, Lunati Voodoo Solid flat cam, t5z, 8 inch with 4.62 gears in a locker.
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
Global Moderator
Big Block
*****
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Posts: 8206


Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 07:22:25 pm »

To be honest, it wouldn't be my first choice. Actually, it would be pretty far down my list

MSD is by far the most popular. Mallory and Accel are owed by Holley, same as MSD. Comp Cams bought out Crane's ignition line and sell them under the Fast brand. Many of the original Crane engineers formed the Daytona Sensors company.

I have a MSD, but I'm not as big of a fan of some of the newer digital ignitions. Mallory and Accel have very limited offerings currently. If the Fast ignitions are unchanged since being bought from Crane, they are awesome. The Daytona Sensors stuff is said to be one of the best, but it is probably more than you are looking for.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
cheapbastard
6 Banger
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Posts: 74


Location: Michigan

« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2017, 08:46:55 am »

Thanks for the feedback Juiced.
Logged

It sucks to get old but at least the expectations are lower...
65 mustang coupe, 10.4 compression 306, home ported 180 cc Chinese heads, funnel web, Lunati Voodoo Solid flat cam, t5z, 8 inch with 4.62 gears in a locker.
cheapbastard
6 Banger
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Posts: 74


Location: Michigan

« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2017, 08:20:55 pm »

So just to satisfy my own neurosis and to ensure the pertronix is not the problem I jerry rigged the old supercoil wiring and it fired right up.  So the summit cd box was indeed bad or it doesn't play well with this trigger.  I was relieved to know the module wasn't faulty.
Logged

It sucks to get old but at least the expectations are lower...
65 mustang coupe, 10.4 compression 306, home ported 180 cc Chinese heads, funnel web, Lunati Voodoo Solid flat cam, t5z, 8 inch with 4.62 gears in a locker.
cheapbastard
6 Banger
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


Location: Michigan

« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2017, 10:10:39 pm »

So I got a second Summit CD box, checked all the wiring and....NADA!  So I tested the box by grounding the white wire and still got nothing.  As a lark I tried switching coils and then grounding white wire....Viola! I have spark.  So I wired up my ancient (at least thirty years old) Accel Super coil and it fired right up with  box working as advertised.  So I checked the MSD part number 8251 coil with Ohmmeter and all seems to be within specs.  So the coil is fine.  Now keep in mind the instructions that come with the CD box SPECIFICALLY say to use the MSD 8251 coil.  HOWEVER, now Summit on their website lists their coil as the REQUIRED coil to use with the box while they used to cite the 8251 as such on their site. 

Now digging deeper in reviews of the CD box I see two other reviews where the 8251 would not work with the CD box but other coils would.  So I voiced all of my frustration to Summit customer service and they agreed to give me a break on a new coil even though their techs assured them the 8251 should work.

So tonight I got the Summit coil wired up and the car fired on the first turn of the key!  Box is working as advertised, the LED light indicates it is getting a solid trigger signal, my tach even works with it, the birds are singing, and all is well with the world! 

So the moral of the story is the MSD 8251 coil will not work with the Summit 200mj ignition box and I am even more sure of the need for due diligence in the aftermarket parts world as well as not taking things for granted 

Modern technology is wonderful.  The next thing you know we will have a man on the moon!
Logged

It sucks to get old but at least the expectations are lower...
65 mustang coupe, 10.4 compression 306, home ported 180 cc Chinese heads, funnel web, Lunati Voodoo Solid flat cam, t5z, 8 inch with 4.62 gears in a locker.
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