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Author Topic: Another RHS215 vs AFR 205 thread  (Read 17844 times)
z-adamson
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2016, 01:02:17 pm »

which way is cheaper and easier to balance?

Go internal...

In my experience it is easier to add and subtract weight from the balancer and flywheel than it is to add Mallory to a crank and subtract weight from the crank, so external wins in terms of which is easier. Internal is superior though in my opinion.
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z-adamson
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2016, 01:27:28 pm »

For a street, pump gas 408 that will see a max of 6krpm I would at least consider stock 351 heads with a port job. I know cfm competition cylinder heads will do a great job on those heads for 500 bucks. Do you already have oem heads? If so, 500 bucks plus valvetrain parts and you are done. A little heavier, but iron has some advantages too. This will free up the budget for other things which are sure to come up and will likely work out very well.
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juiced coupe
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2016, 02:23:20 pm »

In my experience it is easier to add and subtract weight from the balancer and flywheel than it is to add Mallory to a crank and subtract weight from the crank, so external wins in terms of which is easier.

What? That is completely wrong. That only gets you bastardized parts that are hard to replicate in the future.

All your adding and subtracting of weight is to be done on the crank, thats what the crank counterweights are for. The balancer and flywheel are considered wear items. You go and take weight out of a flywheel and you need to replace it 2 years from now, you MUST find a shop with a crank balancer that has the correct mandrel to duplicate the weight removed from the flywheel.

Heres another scenario. You sell your engine to a guy, he decides to change it from a stick to auto or vice versa, the new owner is simply going to replace the flywheel or flexpplate without knowing any better and hes going to ride you like a donkey if the engine you sold him now vibrates.

Leave the flywheel and balancer alone.

This.

For a street, pump gas 408 that will see a max of 6krpm I would at least consider stock 351 heads with a port job. I know cfm competition cylinder heads will do a great job on those heads for 500 bucks. Do you already have oem heads? If so, 500 bucks plus valvetrain parts and you are done. A little heavier, but iron has some advantages too. This will free up the budget for other things which are sure to come up and will likely work out very well.

Even the best ported factory sbf (non Cleveland) heads in the world will not properly feed a 408 at 6000 rpm. It will be dead in the water well before that. And those cheap port jobs are nowhere near the level I'm talking about.

And then there is everything else that the heads would need. Its not worth it.

Don't even bother arguing about it. There are no but's, or's, or if's to it. Its just wrong.

Besides, he wasn't asking about cheap heads. He was asking about $2000+ aftermarket heads.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
z-adamson
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2016, 02:55:54 pm »

I have had dampeners balance matched before, quick easy job for any shop around here. Even off the shelf balancers should be balance matched if used to replace an old one in my experience, they don't all come out of the factory identical. And how many different factories produce them? Are they all done to the same standard. Nope, so creating a non replaceable part is a moot point to me. I understand that it is preferable to do all the work to the crank and leave the flexplate and balancer alone so that they can be replaced easily, but you should still balance match even in that scenario.

As for the oem head, I thought it could feed a 408 if properly ported. Looked like there was enough material in the head to allow for that last I checked. It was just an idea, if it isn't going to work then it isn't going to work. I have had ported own heads work out nicely, not this exact combo though.



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347HO
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2016, 03:02:36 pm »

Ugh.....
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
juiced coupe
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2016, 03:14:53 pm »

Are they all done to the same standard.

Any quality piece should be within tolerances. Key word being quality.

If someone buys junk, they get exactly that. Junk. Same as everything else.

As for the oem head, I thought it could feed a 408 if properly ported. Looked like there was enough material in the head to allow for that last I checked. It was just an idea, if it isn't going to work then it isn't going to work. I have had ported own heads work out nicely, not this exact combo though.

I'll save you the trouble. I've ported factory heads until cutting through the water jackets in order to get measurements. There physically isn't enough material to get the ports large enough. The velocity will be too high and the port will stall.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
dads67coupe
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2016, 03:20:05 pm »

not sure when the train left the station, but I am buying good heads.......

at this point I am just concerned with whats going to be cheaper to balance properly, internal or external. I dont want bastardized stuff that isnt easily available in the future. I dont mind buying either quality 28oz stuff or zero balance stuff, but want something readily available for future issues. I plan on giving the car to one of my kids one day, so I would like them to be able to replaced things easily if needed
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z-adamson
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2016, 03:26:32 pm »

Shops around here suggest matching any dampener, flexplate or flywheel. Regardless of perceived quality level. My JW flexplate for my 347 was not perfect.

My buddy has a small block mopar just over 400cid with ported factory heads. Never seen it on a dyno, but it doesn't seem out of steam at 6k. I thought it might be something to consider here, but if not then so be it. It was just an idea.
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juiced coupe
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2016, 03:31:10 pm »

not sure when the train left the station

A little over two hours ago.

at this point I am just concerned with whats going to be cheaper to balance properly, internal or external.

I think there is about  $150 difference between the internal and external balance RPM cranks.

I've heard that the internal ones are nice pieces, but not sure on the external ones.

Jim should be able to point you in the right direction.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
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Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2016, 03:35:19 pm »

My buddy has a small block mopar just over 400cid with ported factory heads.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with an inline Windsor head.

I will grant you that some factory heads can be made to perform on larger performance engines, some with very good results. Inline SBF heads just aren't one of them.
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Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
Global Moderator
Big Block
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Posts: 8394


Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2016, 03:45:09 pm »

Shops around here suggest matching any dampener, flexplate or flywheel. Regardless of perceived quality level. My JW flexplate for my 347 was not perfect.

Just something to think about. Tolerances can be a bitch, but they are part of life.

Let me also add on external balance cranks this thought.

The flywheel, flexplate is not pinned so they can be sloppy when you put the bolts in.

I can put on a flywheel and if its a bit sloppy, move the flywheel all the way to the left or right, then proceed to balance the crank. Get the crank down to 1 gram or less.

Then loosen the bolts and move the flywheel opposite of what I did when I bolted it on, now re-spin the crank its suddenly 10 grams out of balance because we effectively moved that counterweight into a different spot

LOTS of small things that can be done on a crank balancer.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
z-adamson
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2016, 03:45:31 pm »


Any quality piece should be within tolerances. Key word being quality.

The other key word here is SHOULD. Well worth it to spend the 50 bucks to see that it IS.
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Outlaw Bill
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2016, 03:56:55 pm »

For a street, pump gas 408 that will see a max of 6krpm I would at least consider stock 351 heads with a port job. I know cfm competition cylinder heads will do a great job on those heads for 500 bucks. Do you already have oem heads? If so, 500 bucks plus valvetrain parts and you are done. A little heavier, but iron has some advantages too. This will free up the budget for other things which are sure to come up and will likely work out very well.
Ok this is so stupid!. Who puts ported stock heads on a 408?. You need to shut up about stuff you have no clue about!.
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347HO
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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2016, 04:06:33 pm »

Werd 👆
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
z-adamson
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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2016, 05:52:23 pm »

Ok this is so stupid!. Who puts ported stock heads on a 408?. You need to shut up about stuff you have no clue about!.


Even unported they will perform well to what, 3900rpm in a 408? I thought there was material there to get another 2krpm. If that's not the case, so be it. As for who, seen plenty do it on ford truck forums that were happy, unported running to 4k in a truck. This is winsor heads to be specific.

To make sure we are on the same page, which stock heads are you talking about? Which stock heads did you assume I was talking about in my previous posts? Windsor, cleveland? What year?
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