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Author Topic: new to, and confused with quarterhorse  (Read 24370 times)
rob342
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 10:06:24 am »

Lot of work, little return.  You're going to tune with data logs and the PC.  Gauge is just along for the ride.  

If you like WOT of .88, you can leave your table with AFR gas and you'll have a value of 12.9 in the table.  Then you expect gauge to read 12.9 too.  Regardless of the fuel blend.

alright i'll skip the arduino project and keep tinkering to learn.

i'm having a hard time grasping why there are "Hysterisis" values. It seems they only exist to overcomplicate things. for DFSO, to me it seems that it's only there to subtract 100rpm.

example:

DFLOD   | Fuel - DFSO Maximum Load
DFLODH | Fuel - DFSO Maximum Load Hys

what is the purpose of Hysterisis values?

i see them all over but haven't grasped why they exist. it seems to me that if i just put in a DFLOD value 100rpm lower it would be the same thing and i could set the DFLODH to 0. is that correct?

I'm just messing with the DFSO as it seems a "safe" place to learn/comprehend... possibly pick up mpg.
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white 92GT, with a black interior, pony rims, 5 speed with a 3.73 gear. came with a gear, exhaust, and a powerdyne. nice little cruiser, i didn't change much yet.

have tw170's, systemax II, 75mm accufab, anderson n41, t5z, ford racing 23lb billet flywheel, and a quarterhorse sitting here. cam may change
rob342
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 11:24:07 am »

so.. how the hell do i change the outer numbers?   Huh? ie:

"-10 40 90 140 190 240 242"
to
"-30 10 50 90 136 182 228"


i was copying all the values from the X3Z to the A9L2. now i'm scratching my head. this is the last thing i need to change.

i've been copying over values and reading their descriptions for an hour. this is the final table in the list and now i'm stumped Tongue


* Untitled.png (154.02 KB, 1366x768 - viewed 240 times.)
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white 92GT, with a black interior, pony rims, 5 speed with a 3.73 gear. came with a gear, exhaust, and a powerdyne. nice little cruiser, i didn't change much yet.

have tw170's, systemax II, 75mm accufab, anderson n41, t5z, ford racing 23lb billet flywheel, and a quarterhorse sitting here. cam may change
85_GT
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2016, 12:56:45 pm »


i'm having a hard time grasping why there are "Hysterisis" values. It seems they only exist to overcomplicate things.

Oh no, they keep you from breaking things.  The hysteresis values are in essence the software version of a electrical debounce circuit.  Easiest example would the A/C cut out.  Say you have it set to a load of 70 percent.  At 70 it cuts out, just below 70, it cuts in.  Go up a hair and it cuts out again.  It could lead the ac clutch to cycle so rapidly that it would buzz and eventually give out.  By having hysteresis, it basically delays the switching.  So if you happen to be on the gas pedal just enough to hover at load of 70, it's unlikely it would hit 65 unless you really eased up on the gas.

So basically any values in the scalar tab (you don't see the tabs with the way you're viewing it below) that are use as a trigger value for something to happen, will also have a hysteresis values to prevent that unintentional bouncing.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
85_GT
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2016, 01:01:42 pm »

so.. how the hell do i change the outer numbers?   Huh? ie:

"-10 40 90 140 190 240 242"
to
"-30 10 50 90 136 182 228"


i was copying all the values from the X3Z to the A9L2. now i'm scratching my head. this is the last thing i need to change.

i've been copying over values and reading their descriptions for an hour. this is the final table in the list and now i'm stumped Tongue

You probably don't want to use x3z values.  Decipha has always said it was a bandaid of a tune by guys that weren't that skilled.  His A9L2 tune should have it all set up correctly other than 'turning it on'.  Not sure what value it was to do that.

Regarding the other, are you wanting to change the cell values, or the column heading values.  If the later, he change to 242 and the values to 0 as a fail safe to save the engine if it over heats like that.  By having 0, it stops the fuel and kills the engine until it cools back down.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
rob342
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2016, 02:28:21 pm »

i read what you are talking about and where he said not to change it, but i thought he changed that to 242 as a fail safe in the fuel tables only.  but now it seems he has 242 as more of a global thing throughout the tune. correct?
i understand what you're saying about the hysterisis values now. makes it much clearer. thank you.

so instead of changing the column heading values, i just stared at both and figured i'd see what happened. i kinda did what i could to scale these to the X3Z values using the A9L2 heading values. looks like this now.

with his A9L2 values i couldn't even drive the car.  it was annoying with all the fail safes. i felt like i was driving with cruise control. trying to set it like he described in the "idle101" page did nothing to fix it. so i shut off the IAC and used the stop screw on the TB to make it idle at 750. that was OK on a warm engine, but it was 0 outside this morning and it didn't want to run.  i was sitting in the car with my foot on the gas to warm it up, freezing my ass off, thinking about how every morning i'm going to be sitting in there freezing my ass off, and decided that wasn't how i wanted my future to be.

anyways, with the X3Z stuff i have it idling smooth as low as 500 rpm.   i can start it cold and it starts/runs/drives like it should.  in the future when i'm smarter i'll give his method another shot


* Capture2.PNG (38.87 KB, 893x620 - viewed 240 times.)
Logged

white 92GT, with a black interior, pony rims, 5 speed with a 3.73 gear. came with a gear, exhaust, and a powerdyne. nice little cruiser, i didn't change much yet.

have tw170's, systemax II, 75mm accufab, anderson n41, t5z, ford racing 23lb billet flywheel, and a quarterhorse sitting here. cam may change
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2016, 11:10:31 am »

"but now it seems he has 242 as more of a global thing throughout the tune. correct?"

The column and row headings use through out are populated with the Scaling Functions.  If you go to tab view, you can quickly see just Functions.  Scroll down and you'll see Scaling ones.  The descriptions will tell you what tables they affect.  Each is common to a few tables.  That's why it 'looks global'.  Not independent for each table.

It'll be there somewhere in your view (with that tree on the left) just maybe under something else if it's not in a 'scaling' section.  Like might be under Misc or such.  If you get rid of that view, you'll see 3 tabs. Scalars, Functions and Tables.  I find it easier to work that way cause I think in those terms, then click the tab of interest to me.   Each kinda increases in complexity, simple on/off values, single x vs y line, then tables (multiple xy lines).

His most recent A9L2s incorporated a 'mechanical like' idle.  Earlier ones didn't. You'd have to read up on it and how to properly set it up so you can just use the TB screw, and it should still retain some 'auto adjustments' for dashpot, ac, etc. 

I find it easy enough to just figure out what the tables/functions and scalars need to be filled with after some data logging.  Others have a harder time with it.

Reason you want to have your 'fuel dialed in first' is that you maybe altering some of your MAF transfer function to get it dialed in.  That affects what the eec thinks it's getting for air, and almost all those IAC settings are air values.  So you'd have to start all over on all of them each time you touch the MAF curve in that region.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
rob342
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2016, 09:51:01 am »

ok.. another day.. i'd like to learn to understand the fueling.

i read this, over and over and over..


it does not explain how to compare what i have vs what the wideband says. can you help me understand this? 
if i had to guess, i would open EEC Analyzer and go to mapping, select 'LAMBSE1' for table 1, and 'Wide Band O2' for table 2. then set both to 'Average', and hit 'Calculate'. when i do this, i get the attachment you see 'Capture4.png', indicating i'm either using a crappy data log, my car is WAY off, or i'm doing it wrong. i'm assuming i'm doing it wrong.


i'm also confused as to the criteria that should be met in order to have a datalog with any value.

-should i only start recording when the ECT is over a certain number, like 180?
-if i start recording when i get up to 180, drive a few miles in traffic, and then floor it to 6000rpm, is that enough or reliable data to start with?
-if the tires break free does that screw it up? traction is minimal right now as it's 0 here and the streets are slick with salt. in the datalog i used to make the attached PNG, the tires were spinning...a lot.

after i get this stuff comprehended, my next question is going to be how/where am i supposed to adjust lambse to match the wideband


* Capture4.PNG (62.69 KB, 799x597 - viewed 273 times.)
* A9LR 2016_Jan_13_07-43-40.csv (3252.41 KB - downloaded 108 times.)
Logged

white 92GT, with a black interior, pony rims, 5 speed with a 3.73 gear. came with a gear, exhaust, and a powerdyne. nice little cruiser, i didn't change much yet.

have tw170's, systemax II, 75mm accufab, anderson n41, t5z, ford racing 23lb billet flywheel, and a quarterhorse sitting here. cam may change
85_GT
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2016, 11:37:31 am »

Can't see your first image here at work, unless it's the map view attached at the bottom of your post.  So can't answer to that now.  But can give some general guidance to your questions.

You have EA, that's good.  Forget the Mapping tab.  You can use it down the road to get more insight if you wish.  Your friends are going to be the Data Log tab, MAF tab, and Injector Slope tab.
The chart tab is my main goto when I'm looking for issues/glitches to know where to zoom into for data of interest. 

Jumping to your last question. Using the MAF curve function, as obtained from the MAF tab, and/or the injector slopes/breakpoint from the Injector Slope tab is what controls the amount of fuel at any given time.  You adjust these values (generally to what EA spits out) to get WB to match the commanded LAMBSE.  Once they are adjusted correctly, any LAMBSE you put in tables will be what you see show up on your WB.  At that point, you start 'tuning' for best performance by changing the table values.

Now going back up.  Regarding criteria.  Log it all.  From key start.  Not so necessary now, but you'll be able to look at how the engine behaves as it warms up.  Your friend the data log tab has a filter button.  Once you open the log up, you filter out items that can throw things off in the calculations.  You want to take out transient things that are handled with other tables and functions.  Things like cold engine, acceleration enrichment, open loop, closed loop, idle state, etc.  Can post a snap shot of my typical filters tonight.  Something not to long ago was posted on eectuning.org by crey8 of some recommended filters.

When you run the calcs, either MAF or slopes, you do one at a time.  Run one, make changes, relog.
You'll do this often as you get more comfortable and start obsessing on perfection lol.

I find I get almost there with just injector slopes, leaving MAF alone.  Then if there are any anomalies, it might need a MAF tweak.  Say very low for idle.

You're log shows only open loop.  I usually used closed loop and rely on KAMRF values to dial in slopes.  And once they are pretty good, I'll look at WB for open loop top end to see if the MAF needs any fine tuning. 

Since I don't need to rush things, I like getting a nice long drive in for the log.  Almost all of it comes from morning 20 mile commute.  Once dialed in.  Short runs are enough for things like getting timing/performance data.

Since you're open loop, a good log would be a 2nd gear pull from idle to WOT.  The MAF and Slope tabs have options for both open or closed loop calculations.  If that still looses traction, may want to tune closed loop.  You'll be able to exercise the engine enough from low to high LOAD values in closed loop without needing a WOT pull.  If fuel is right from 10 percent to 70 percent LOAD, your WOT will be right too unless MAF is off at higher flows.

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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
85_GT
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2016, 09:02:02 pm »

Ah, it's a snap shot of Michael's write up.  Kinda said same in my reply.  That's dialing in fuel.  So what you command in the eec actually gets delivered.  Don't confuse this with the optimizing that occurs later.   

His second paragraph goes over how to adjust and do calculations the manual way if you don't have EA.  Basically calculate percent or ratio it is off and apply that the the injectors slope or maf curve.

And the use of filters removes those cold engine conditions stated in the beginning.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
rob342
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2016, 10:44:12 am »

do i just go to injector slope tab in EEC analyzer,
click "settings", pick "automatic", type 19 where it says 24, and then click calculate using PW vs required fuel?

i did this with datalog filters PW1, PW2, MAF filters set to filter out the 0's, and ECT to filter out anything under 165.

i have changed my high slope from 19.02 to 18.44, low slope from 26.09 to 24.58, and BP from 5.01 to 4.95. 

i'm going to go clear the KAM's and see how it runs.

i'll datalog on my way home and see how my commanded AFR matches my LAMBSE.. how do i compare these anyhow?


_____
oh, i could hear it pinging at 5900 last night... kinda makes me want to learn faster. i'm never usually over 5000 since it's more or less a stock HCI turd right now.--
Logged

white 92GT, with a black interior, pony rims, 5 speed with a 3.73 gear. came with a gear, exhaust, and a powerdyne. nice little cruiser, i didn't change much yet.

have tw170's, systemax II, 75mm accufab, anderson n41, t5z, ford racing 23lb billet flywheel, and a quarterhorse sitting here. cam may change
85_GT
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2016, 10:59:28 am »

Yeah, that's about it.  Probably was a choice for short term or long term closed loop and open loop.  Think it prompts you if to use 14.7 or datalog values at some point.  Pick datalog.  Good for a first run.  Filtering out TAR greater than 0 will remove the 'accelerator pump shot'  Usually filter out non 0 AEFUEL EFTRFF.  It'll take out more of the swings in the little chart it shows.  Also like to not use idle, so TS 0 and 1.  Not -1  But fine for a start.

If you put in back in your original values after the calc, you'll see how your 'fuel line' looks through the data versus the one you calculated.  The new one should have the line going through the center of most of the data points.
Logged

85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
85_GT
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2016, 11:04:12 am »


 how do i compare these anyhow?


Once you load the new log, use the chart tab for a quick visual.  Select AFR for Pen 1 and LAMBSE 1 or 2 for Pen 2.  Which tube is your WB in?  Actually won't matter since you're open loop and both LAMBSE's will be the same.  But for down the road, if in CL, I compare the AFR to the LAMBSE the WB is in.  1 is pass side, 2 is driver side.  You'll see differences in CL as eec adjusts.

You can zoom in and scroll at see how close they follow each other.
Logged

85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
85_GT
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2016, 11:43:53 am »

Oh, and a rough interpretation of your results.  Since it lowered the slopes, it means it's adding fuel cause you were leaner than expected.

As an aside.  E10 requires more fuel that straight gas.  Which the original values were for.

Since it now needs to get to a roughly 14.2 ratio.... 18.44/19.02 x 14.7 = 14.25... hey what ya know.. Smiley
Logged

85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
rob342
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2016, 12:41:21 pm »

the car does use closed loop. it was last night. seems it's always CL when floored and i also had it say CL in a couple times when not WOT.

funny with that chart... after choosing a pen, you right click the graph and go to properties and enable the pen. couldn't figure out why the chart was blank.

here's a datalog from a few minutes ago. the high plateaus in green are the DFSO turning off the injectors when i decelerate

would you say the filters are set how you meant?

as for the chart, i used lambse2 because i installed the wideband in the driver side. i put it there because i had more room to weld since engine trans are offset to the right.

in a chart you'd make, these lines are basically right over one another? i'd like to see that


* 1.PNG (98.63 KB, 804x614 - viewed 239 times.)

* 2.PNG (115.88 KB, 1366x768 - viewed 239 times.)
Logged

white 92GT, with a black interior, pony rims, 5 speed with a 3.73 gear. came with a gear, exhaust, and a powerdyne. nice little cruiser, i didn't change much yet.

have tw170's, systemax II, 75mm accufab, anderson n41, t5z, ford racing 23lb billet flywheel, and a quarterhorse sitting here. cam may change
rob342
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2016, 12:47:27 pm »

Oh, and a rough interpretation of your results.  Since it lowered the slopes, it means it's adding fuel cause you were leaner than expected.

As an aside.  E10 requires more fuel that straight gas.  Which the original values were for.

Since it now needs to get to a roughly 14.2 ratio.... 18.44/19.02 x 14.7 = 14.25... hey what ya know.. Smiley

ha! neat.
Logged

white 92GT, with a black interior, pony rims, 5 speed with a 3.73 gear. came with a gear, exhaust, and a powerdyne. nice little cruiser, i didn't change much yet.

have tw170's, systemax II, 75mm accufab, anderson n41, t5z, ford racing 23lb billet flywheel, and a quarterhorse sitting here. cam may change
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