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Author Topic: 86 f150 5.0 running rich  (Read 40149 times)
gil1986
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2014, 02:16:43 pm »

 Thanks for the help with the fuel delivery issue Joel. Certainly didn't expect you hang in there this long!
 I am not convinced vacuum is the issue, I think electronically its going lean at least being told too! when my 02 reads .500-.700 it idles so smooth! I am traveling next week so it will give me a break, regroup and back at it when I return with a fresh mind. thru my years as a GM tech on strange  problems like this it always end up being something silly, Ground or broken wire, poor connection....
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gil1986
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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2014, 08:06:04 pm »

OK, Just got in from warming up the truck and performing a KOER test with a vacuum T installed in the Map/Baro sensor line, engine ran rich during the test blowing black smoke out the tailpipes chugging away and when test was done I plugged the T and it smoothed out, Seem's to react normal. Here's the kicker it still set a code 41-LEAN!   I would have thought it would have set a rich code for sure! Fuel Pressure still 37lbs - 42 with no Vacuum at regulator!......... ?????????
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2014, 09:18:39 pm »

OK, Just got in from warming up the truck and performing a KOER test with a vacuum T installed in the Map/Baro sensor line, engine ran rich during the test blowing black smoke out the tailpipes chugging away and when test was done I plugged the T and it smoothed out, Seem's to react normal. Here's the kicker it still set a code 41-LEAN!  I would have thought it would have set a rich code for sure! Fuel Pressure still 37lbs - 42 with no Vacuum at regulator!......... ?????????

If that is the case...... that O2 sensor is a liar! LOL...... kidding aside, that is the truth (NPI). Just make sure that O2 sensor signal wire is not open or shorted to ground between the sensor connector and the EEC connector pin, and if it passes those tests...... throw it in file 13 (garbage can) and replace it. LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2014, 10:07:43 am »

  I performed the last test with the 02 sensor off line, but I was monitoring it with my volt meter. The 02 never got over .350v with black smoke out the pipes at idle but, if you bring it off idle say 1000 rpm or higher it then picks up and will go to the other end of the scale. It appears the Engine only runs lean at idle, off idle and higher its fine no bog or hesitation. I will say the engine runs better not 100% but better with a coolant sensor plugged in and hanging in the open air and the vac line off the regulator and plugged. makes me think there is a restriction in fuel injectors, not enough pulse width at idle! I rechecked computor grounds, I did have a 75 ohm resistance from negative battery terminal to engine. I cleaned negative battery cable at the block and added a ground to the body and it is less than .5 now. rechecked the 3 grounds (pin 20-40-60) at the ECM and all less than .5 ohms
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2014, 12:24:59 pm »

One small detail that you need to know about '86 EEC systems....... before running a valid KOER self test, you need to take engine to op temp (above 160° coolant temp) and run the engine @2,000 RPM steady for ~2 minutes.... then start the KOER ASAP after shutting engine down.

The required procedure above is to heat the O2 sensor since it is not a heated unit.
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2014, 01:53:38 pm »

 Thanks for that tip Joel! I just went out and cut the 02 sensor inline connector out and hard wired it. I was testing it at pin 29 out to connector and I was getting inconsistent reading! I reconnected the 02 to ECM and after disconnecting it to clear memory, I went for a road test with my volt meter tied into 02 sensor circuit. once the 02 sensor heated up I literally saw the volt meter start fluctuating! Could this be closed loop! YES! when stopped in drive it was idling like a champ! Wahoo! Progress!
    I did notice that it goes back into open loop easily when stopped at idle for a period. so I ask is it possible to wire in a heated 02 sensor into this old timer? This has been a long battle and thanks to your help Joel there is daylight at the end of the tunnel!!!
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2014, 03:12:33 pm »

Yep..... it is possible to not only ensure close loop but also shorten the time the ECM looks for a change (O2 switching status)........ all you need is a 4-wire sensor (universal Bosch is an option) get the signal and ground wires connected to the engine harness and ensure an IGN ON voltage supply to one of the heater wires and the other to a good ground. Or a s shown in the different O2 sensors configurations below....

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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2014, 07:03:36 pm »

   I am now back to square one!  Engine stalling at stops. erratic idle and cannot seem to make up its mind to run rich or lean! I am Baffled! No codes other than the 44 for disconnected air pump and the other code for missing knock sensor! lean and or rich codes gone no KOEO codes at all.
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2014, 07:15:05 am »

No KOEO codes at all as in not even code 11 for System Pass?
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2014, 08:26:54 am »

 I am Using a Genisys OTC scanner and it states "system pass" in words not by a code 11. I Have tied my DVM into the 02 circuit and have it displayed on the dash. I Notice that once it is warmed up I do get closed loop due to the fact that the readings go from say.900 to .100 rapidly but then will hang at .080 or .800 either high or low. when coming to a stop it almost always goes back down under .100
 the engine idle will go so low that it stalls. Then sometimes I will start it in my driveway semi warm and it will idle great until I touch the gas pedal then it goes nuts again. I looked at the tps signal yeaterday it is at .90 with no break in signal up to wide open throttle 4.3v that I can see. I notice that when its not running smooth that there are like small spikes that cause the engine to stumble. I wish I understood this early system better than I do as I was a GM tech back in the 70's thru the 90's but always a ford guy!
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2014, 08:46:54 am »

Yep.... a code 11 or system pass KOEO it is then.

You could be trying to solve an idle problem that is non-EEC caused...... have you checked if idle improves when the rolling starts by spraying some carb cleaner at the upper-lower gasket joint, lower manifold joints and the manifold vacuum supply ports? How is the PCV and the strainer screen? Have you kept the EGR valve vacuum line disconnected to check if the EVR is staying stuck open causing the EGR to actuate? LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2014, 07:55:55 am »

  I tore the top end of the engine down, heads off and inspected guides, Valves and springs all was good. I reassembled the engine only to find the same problem of a lean idle the computer could not compensate for which brings me to the conclusion. Long tube headers do in fact cause enough of an air flow change to effect the idle mixture.
   I considered trying a 351 Windsor map sensor to see if that would fatten it up enough to make it happy. My only other option is to go back to stock exhaust manifolds. Sorry for the delay but it has been a bit frustrating trying to nail this issue down!
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Joel5.0
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Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2014, 11:57:22 am »

  I tore the top end of the engine down, heads off and inspected guides, Valves and springs all was good. I reassembled the engine only to find the same problem of a lean idle the computer could not compensate for which brings me to the conclusion. Long tube headers do in fact cause enough of an air flow change to effect the idle mixture.
   I considered trying a 351 Windsor map sensor to see if that would fatten it up enough to make it happy. My only other option is to go back to stock exhaust manifolds. Sorry for the delay but it has been a bit frustrating trying to nail this issue down!

Think for a second about what you are using to infer a "lean idle" as your idle problem cause..... if the system stays in close loop and the input from the O2 is lean, the EEC will increase its fuel-trim correction. If you disconnect the O2 and idle problem continues, the O2 sensor is not used. BTW.... a 351w MAP sensor is the same unit all engines use (I4, I6, V6 and V8 engines).

An alternate diagnostic technique I follow, is to install a hose "T" to the MAP line with an adjustable valve (like the small water "T" units used for the ice maker line) and cause a partial vacuum leak to lower the MAP vacuum...... this will cause the EEC to react by increasing the fuel trim/injectors pulse.
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Posts: 27


Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2014, 06:01:41 pm »

Thanks for the reply Joel. I was thinking about tricking the system to fatten up the idle not knowing how it would effect off idle and highway. I like the regulated vacuum "T" idea . I will go get one tomorrow
and install a second tee for my Vacuum gauge so I can see just how many inch's I need to overcome the
problem. I read that the system will continue to adjust the fuel trim at idle until it reaches an end point and that is when it begins to start the surging and stall. Thanks for the info on the map sensor, I thought they may have been calibrated differently for cubic inch displacement, like carb jetting.
That will save me the time and $$ of yet another dead end Lol!
    I did install the heated 02 FYI. I came close to going "intake and carb" which I can tune quite easily! However, I am a thick headed Italian and though I swear I will give up on this, I wake up the next day ready for another round! 
                                        Happy Thanksgiving!   Gil
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Joel5.0
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Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2014, 07:37:09 pm »

I almost forgot  .... did you know that long tube headers has no effect on your setup based on the O2 location? That baby is located way downstream (when compared to other systems) within an enclosed restricted tube reading both cylinder banks. IOW.... it is usually located behind the RH transmission bell housing-to-transmission joint before the exhaust "Y" connector. Or better said.... its location due to the long tube headers.... is not relevant to your problem.
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
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