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Author Topic: 86 f150 5.0 running rich  (Read 41711 times)
gil1986
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2014, 05:00:21 pm »

 I cleaned the EGR valve reinstalled, started engine with the 1" steel pipe disconnected and did not feel any vacuum from the EGR like before. So I put it all back together, cleared codes checked for codes 1st there were none. did and KOER test with Genesis scanner- 1st test I got 44-34-13-25, I cleared codes 1 more time ran test again got codes 41 34 13 25. There is a brand new 02 sensor which I just installed
it is located at the header collector(long tube headers) on the header side at the top. The knock sensor was missing since I have had the truck and the air pump is temporarily off the truck( if this matters I will reinstall).Still have a rolling idle and will stall at times when shifted into drive. I am obviously missing something here and I am not throwing in the towel!
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2014, 08:01:22 pm »

Base idle needs to be reset lower (code 13)
Now you have a "System lean Condition" (code 41) showing.
EGR sensor failure is still showing

Don't worry about the AIR pump, make sure a code 44 shows again (equivalent to system pass when AIR pump is off) to make sure fuel-trim correction is within acceptable range, but take care of 13 by lowering RPM setting. LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2014, 09:50:58 am »

Why is it when trying to set min idle I still have the rolling idle issue? I disconnected the EGR again to check for leaky pintle seat and it was leaking slightly. So I made sure it wasn't leaking got the truck hot disconnected the ECM for 15 min reconnected and tried to base idle. I want to say that when in open loop it idles fine but when in closed loop it rock and rolls. Man I wish I could see the live readings as in OBD II systems. I checked the coolant sensor hot the only reading I can get is voltage which was .63
I too think the system is lean and trying to fatten itself up! It seems I will have to spend the $100 to replace EGR Valve to put that fault behind me!   
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gil1986
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2014, 11:30:06 am »

 I readjusted base idle and I continue to get 41-34-25 codes. idle roll much worse with base idle lower tps at .95 I wish I could read the 02 sensor live! Is it possible to tap into the 02 wire with volt meter and ground to get an active reading while running?
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2014, 12:07:08 pm »

I readjusted base idle and I continue to get 41-34-25 codes. idle roll much worse with base idle lower tps at .95 I wish I could read the 02 sensor live! Is it possible to tap into the 02 wire with volt meter and ground to get an active reading while running?

Yep.... check the TS procedure for code 41 at http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,29771.0.html ...... for code 34 you may also require to replace the EGR sensor as well.

You could also check the O2 sensor output with it disconnected from the engine harness and also check how the idle control behaves in a constant open loop mode. LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2014, 06:10:32 pm »

I tested the 02 sensor with truck idling warm an got .019-.020 pretty steady. so I pulled it out and bench tested it with torch, it worked fined up to .98 and back down when cooled. I am wondering either the 02 sensor cannot function correctly in a long tube header at the header collector or this aftermarket sensor is not sensitive enough, I did pull the map sensor to look at it and that too is aftermarket Napa Echlin with no numbers. Somebody was chasing this problem! like I said when I got it the 02 was gone and the wire ground to block, an aftermarket coolant sensor hanging in the breeze, 160 thermostat and a set of cold plugs were installed. anyway I will get an EGR but I'm pretty sure that's not going to make this happy! I will let u know! Gil

         P.S. with 02 disconnected it didn't matter still went rich after idling for a min or so in drive and stalled.
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Joel5.0
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Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2014, 08:32:48 pm »

Suggestion..... take the O2 out of the picture for now and leave it disconnected. It won't matter what it reads since it will be offline. If it does go rich with it offline (measuring its output disconnected with a DVOM and system under forced open loop conditions) .... LUK.
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
4 Banger
*
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Posts: 27


Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2014, 08:22:14 pm »

 This truck is a stubborn SOB!! I replaced the EGR Valve and Wallah!,  runs the same! Just for the heck of it I installed a different factory map sensor but no change! Hers the thing for some reason the timing I believe is making the idle drop. I can watch it with timing light attached in gear, idle is fine.... then timing drops from over 20 down to base timing. this is when it starts thumping like its got a rough idle camshaft and eventually stalls. I am beginning to think there's an issue in the valve train somewhere even though compression didn't show a weak cylinder!
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Joel5.0
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Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2014, 08:30:25 am »

Did you take the O2 out of the picture?
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Posts: 27


Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2014, 10:32:21 am »

yes Joel I did. In fact I ran it inside the cab connected to my volt meter so I could watch the voltage as I drove the truck!
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Joel5.0
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Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2014, 10:43:54 am »

What readings did you see? Did it oscillate between .15 - .9 vdc?.... or did it stay below .45 vdc all the time?
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
4 Banger
*
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Posts: 27


Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2014, 12:01:40 pm »

while driving down the road in town 35mph, it was in the .650-.750 zone. on the highway at 65mph it was .900-.940 and at idle it would drop to .025. I blocked off the brake booster yesterday and ac along with evap line. none of those made a difference, when I had the upper plenum off I removed all the vacuum lines for inspection. I did not replace the lower intake gasket appears to be fine. I am going out shortly to run another KOER test and see what codes I get after the EGR replacement.
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gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2014, 03:26:06 pm »

The only codes I am getting now are 41 and 25. The EGR code is gone. I am going to disconnect the ECM for 15 min and do the idle relearn again!
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Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
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Posts: 22510


Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2014, 08:48:15 pm »

while driving down the road in town 35mph, it was in the .650-.750 zone. on the highway at 65mph it was .900-.940 and at idle it would drop to .025. I blocked off the brake booster yesterday and ac along with evap line. none of those made a difference, when I had the upper plenum off I removed all the vacuum lines for inspection. I did not replace the lower intake gasket appears to be fine. I am going out shortly to run another KOER test and see what codes I get after the EGR replacement.

Suggestion.... key..... keep the O2 installed but monitor its output while the KOER runs. If it goes above .45vdc and you still get a code 41...... you need to check that signal at the ECM connector. LUK.
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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*
Offline Offline

Posts: 27


Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2014, 10:52:51 am »

I connected the 02 sensor back online and tapped into the harness at the ECM. performed the KOER test and the voltage never went past .230
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