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Author Topic: 86 f150 5.0 running rich  (Read 41663 times)
gil1986
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« on: July 28, 2014, 10:50:28 am »

I recently purchased an 86 f150 302 with an AOD trans. The truck has long tube headers which connects to a single convertor then to a performance muffler with dual outlets to rear. I found no 02 sensor and the 02 wire from harness run to ground. the coolant sensor plugged in sitting on top the intake. the truck has had a rough idle since i purchased it almost making you think it has a small cam.
   I began my task of trying to get this back to a decent idling truck. I have thoroughly cleaned the throttle body with a new IAC and TPS. took of the plenum removed the injectors for inspection and replaced the O'rings and installed new gaskets. I performed compression test ( 150 lbs @ 8 cyl's) replaced 160 thermostat with 195 and installed the correct plugs instead of the colder plugs that were in it. I purchased a new 02 sensor and installed it in the convertor only to realize it to far away from the engine and will have to install it at the collector. The fuel pressure is at 36lbs and 42 with no vacuum applied. also there is no knock sensor installed the connector laying on intake, I also installed a new intake air charge sensor due to poor reading from ohm test. I have an old OTC scanner but get no codes from system KOEO or KOER which I thought was strange. I have been thru all vacuum lines checking each one at a time replaced any questionable lines.
  the truck starts fine has a cold high idle and comes down shortly after starting then idles fine for about 15 to 20 seconds before stating to drop, i watched the timing as this happens an it does retard from high 20" to about 13 degrees with spout in. the truck is running rich for sure. short of me installing the 02 sensor at the collector am I missing something here? I feel i am pretty good at fuel management , however i am not that familiar with the 86 ford system! I would be a happy camper if anyone knows how to get this truck to run clean again!
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 12:20:02 pm »

Need to start by accessing the self test routines following the DIY procedure with a test light explained at http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html and LUK the results.
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 01:36:15 pm »

     Thanks for your reply Joel. I did the KOEO and KOER tests again using a test lamp as per your request. I still got nothing not even a flash on the lamp! I would imagine 1st I will Have to weld the 02 sensor bung in the collector and connect before I waste any of your time! I will say that when I clear the ECM (Disconnect for 20 Min) and restart it idles very good but begins to fatten up and rpm's start dropping and the roughness begins over a short road test. I will get the 02 relocated and get back to you!  Thanks Gil
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 02:14:20 pm »

Looks like you may have a problem with the ECM or the wiring. Did you try the DIY test by grounding the STI terminal to a good ground instead of the SIGRTN terminal at the VIP connector? If not, suggest to try it. LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 05:35:50 pm »

   Yes I did try that and got the same result no codes. I never purchase a part unless I am convinced it is defective. The worst part is I have no History on the repairs of the truck. I put a new timing chain and gears in it just recently after hearing a strange lifter type noise coming from the timing cover. Only to find that when I pulled the cover the cam gear bolt and washer fell into the anti freeze bucket below!
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 08:42:25 pm »

Cool!.... likewise here. However, you have a problem that needs to be fixed..... "lack of access or communication with the ECM for self test routine".......... could there be a key input sensor or actuator having the same communication problem?

Suggest to check STO, STI and SIGRTN circuits + open the ECM to make sure you don't have a problem with electrolytic capacitors gone 10-7..... as explained at  http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,15654.0.html ..... LUK.
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 11:46:29 am »

  OK Joel,  I'm on it!  Thanks again,  I'll let you know the outcome!
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gil1986
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 02:31:04 pm »

 Well i checked the STI, STO and SIGRTN from the ECM connector out to the test connector none are shorted or open. my ECM is not an legible as the label is washed out and I can see it says reman. I did look inside and the capacitors that are there looked fine with no leakage. I will attach photos hopefully they will appear. Looks like I will need to replace the ECM not sure which aftermarket supplier would be best (NAPA, AutoZone, O'Rielly's, Advanced) I would imagine they all come from similar source!


* ecm2.JPG (46.48 KB, 320x240 - viewed 329 times.)

* ecm3.JPG (51.95 KB, 320x240 - viewed 318 times.)

* ecm1.JPG (36.89 KB, 320x240 - viewed 268 times.)
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 05:01:36 pm »

 WOW.... that's an oldie for sure, with the extra PWB attached with the flexible extension connector. I still keep one in my "used ECMs" bin from a 1985 Lincoln Continental with a 5.0L. If no output from the STO is possible, checked with a test light connected to 12 vdc, yep.... the ECM is kaput. The replacement you will get from any of those auto parts stores is either Cardone or BWD. LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
gil1986
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Location: Mt Airy,NC

« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 04:18:05 pm »

I went to the parts store today to order new ECM They tell me there are 2 or 3 different options. He asked what the code was on the unit I had   the label is faded out! so short of finding a truck just like mine in a bone yard 86 5.0 AOD fed Emissions I'm Hoping You might have a clue?
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gil1986
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2014, 04:20:18 pm »

PS.......... sent a pm to you Joel Didn't know if it went thru?
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gil1986
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 04:13:44 pm »

OK I got a replacement ECM found my genesis scanner packed away and ran a KOEO test 1ST got no codes then ran KOER test and Got codes 25 No Knock sensor detected which is correct that is missing. Then code 34 EGR Valve ( Keep in mind while running codes I had the rolling idle going on) Next was 44 Air Injection which i did remove and plug as a test the next code 72 Insufficient Manifold Absolute Pressure and finally a 73 Insufficient Throttle Position Change. Now after installing the Ecm I tried to set the base idle with the IAC disconnected and I still get a slight rolling idle, which puzzles me cause I went thru all the possible Vacuum leaks I could Imagine unless I missed something but anyway the good I got codes and Maybe theres one here that is not related to idle rolling
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gil1986
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 06:07:24 pm »

Ok so I believe I may have located my issue! I removed the pipe from the Egr Valve and started it up, at idle I am Getting Vacuum from the port where the pipe screws on which tells me the pintal is not seating, and why the code 34 is setting for higher than normal voltage because the pintal can't drop down enough for the sensor to reach closed position! I believe its causing my idle roll and rough idle due to the Ecm trying to enrich the fuel to make up for the added air!
   Anyone believe this is the issue or am i chasing my tail here?
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 02:16:04 pm »

Ok so I believe I may have located my issue! I removed the pipe from the Egr Valve and started it up, at idle I am Getting Vacuum from the port where the pipe screws on which tells me the pintal is not seating, and why the code 34 is setting for higher than normal voltage because the pintal can't drop down enough for the sensor to reach closed position! I believe its causing my idle roll and rough idle due to the Ecm trying to enrich the fuel to make up for the added air!
   Anyone believe this is the issue or am i chasing my tail here?

Yep...... did you get a chance to clean the EGR and simply leave the vacuum line that opens it off? BTW.... codes 72 and 73 are related, in your case........ when a KOER is running, you should see a single flash before codes are output, this is indicative that the system is waiting for a brief WOT activation to verify TPS and MAP signal change. LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
Haystack
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2014, 03:06:52 pm »

The map sensor and temp sensor generally govern fuel consumption. if you really have no leaks and the map sensor still shows up, its likely garbage. you cab actually test them with a volt meter and a vacuum pump, or if you have a spare swap them and see if it goes away.

the low throttle position change code i am not familar with. is that part of the running codes procedure, or does it mean the throttle hasent moved enough?

Either way, easy to test. take your tps and check voltages at throttle positions. should start at .6-1.27v's and gradually gain until you reach 3.5 or more volts above idle value. any dead spots or sweep issues and the sensor is junk or not being moved enough by.your throttle shaft.
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1987 Ford thunderbird. sn-95 t-5, f-150 clutch and flywheel behind a 5.0 s.o. weighs about 3500lbs.
1986 cougar gs. 5.0 s.o. and aod.
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