Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 22, 2018, 08:03:46 am

Login with username, password and session length
Director PLEASE!!!!
Add your location information to your personal profile. Thanx!
435265 Posts in 37271 Topics by 9537 Members
Latest Member: Mgabski
Search: Advanced search
Advertiser Inquiries
+ My Community
|-+ Grass Roots Tech
| |-+ Grass Roots Camshafts
| | |-+ Crower 15513 roller cam .512/228 int .531/234 ex
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Crower 15513 roller cam .512/228 int .531/234 ex  (Read 13103 times)
t-boltbill
2stroke
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Location:
1964 Thunderbolt replica


« on: March 29, 2014, 11:34:21 am »

First and foremost, I am new to sbf tech and this is my first post, so forgive me if it lacks a little in protocol. I just concluded (successfully) a 302 +030, 1987 roller block build that included use of components that generate considerable controversy, among them TFS track heat 58cc heads, with stock (notched) pistons and a camshaft with considerable duration/overlap. The 58cc heads come with the "red tag of death" stating they cannot be used with anything other than TFS pistons. I was aware of this warning prior to purchase but chose to "roll the dice" notwithstanding a body of evidence from other postings that these are milled to achieve volume and placed valves (intake in particular) in conflict with pistons. My piston were approximately .015 from the deck (a good sign to start), I used the felpro 1011-2 (039 compressed thickness for better quench and compression) and with the subject Crower 15513 cam (specs readily available from Crower to save typing) had no clearance issues whatsoever. I  checked both ways (dial indicator and clay) exhaust was never close and intake had a country mile (at least .100) this was with cam degreed per card with no additional advance or retard. The combo is going in a tbolt replica with 4sp and 3.55 and I wanted a choppy/aggressive idle (to match the look of the car) but with decent drivability. If this is what you are looking for this is the trick. 58 cc heads yield about 10:1 comp so exhaust has a sharp note and still makes about 12-14 inches of vacuum at idle 1000 rpm. FYI I stumbled on to an extraordinary roller rocker made by Jim Miller (of mid lift geometry fame) and sold on eBay from High flow dynamics for $200 brand new. These were an exceptional fit/value with perfect mid lift geometry and witness marks, but with slightly shorter pushrod length that most seem to be reporting with this series of head. I ended up with 6.65" length for both intake and exhaust. Sorry for the length of this post , hope I don't get banned and hope it is informational for someone looking to use the same combo I did. PTV clearance seems to be one of the most common threads and I concur with most of what is published, particularly that it varies with nearly every application and MUST be checked, however  certain statements that suggest gross valve lift is not as big a consideration as overlap/duration is misleading. The use of this cam with lower gross lift than the comparable TFS stage 2 and the ever popular XE274, made this combo a safe application with the 58cc heads. In closing, this is a wonderful community of SBF devotees and I gained tremendous knowledge and assistance from the site/threads in building my combo, and just wanted to pay back a little, sorry if this is wordy or out of place for the forum.
Logged
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22510


Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2014, 03:01:53 pm »

PTV clearance seems to be one of the most common threads and I concur with most of what is published, particularly that it varies with nearly every application and MUST be checked, however  certain statements that suggest gross valve lift is not as big a consideration as overlap/duration is misleading. The use of this cam with lower gross lift than the comparable TFS stage 2 and the ever popular XE274, made this combo a safe application with the 58cc heads.

And the statement is correct, gross lift has nothing to do whatsoever with possible PtV problems over the overlap and exhaust closing/intake opening events. Keep in mind that gross lift happens around 104° - 118° ATDC or BTDC..... or when the piston is more than 1.8" below deck.

The 15513 advanced 4° is Exh. 1° ATDC / Int. 6° BTDC @.050" and a +7° overlap.
The XE274HR and the TFS Stg2 advanced 4° are Exh. 0° ATDC / Int. 4° BTDC @.050" and a +4°.

Which means that the XE274HR and the Stg2 should provide more clearance on either valve. I have a X-cam (same intake lobe as the Stg2) with 1.72 rollers (.583" gross lift) and ~50cc 289 heads.... never a problem.
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
t-boltbill
2stroke
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Location:
1964 Thunderbolt replica


« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2014, 06:45:11 pm »

Notwithstanding my appreciation for a response, I would like (for the sake of clarification, but not controversy) to reconcile my statement which was somewhat misquoted/misunderstood with respect to PTV clearance. My position is quite the antithesis of the respondent insofar far as gross valve lift DOES matter and more specially in regard to the cylinder head mentioned TFS 51410010-m58. These heads, by virtue of reorientation of the intake valve, render the stock piston reliefs "of no effect" based on a composite of intake valve size (2.02") and inclination to the piston due to the aforementioned reorientation. The intake valve perimeter, or eyebrow if you will, makes contact with the piston above the relief (which I verified with the clay) such that one might as well have a flat top piston. The exhaust valve orientation remains at/close to stock such that your rarely here mention of PTV issues on the exhaust side with these heads as opposed to intake. Perhaps I should have posted this somewhere else, however, I chose the OTS camshaft forum since in the case of Crower 15513, it provided a remedy to the problem of PTV associated specifically with this head and desired use of aggressive cams. I noted when researching my build that TFS, Comp Cams! Lunati all "chase each other" with grinds/profiles that are but an eyelash difference, as opposed to the Crower grind with significantly less "gross lift" but with a similar grind in terms of valve timing events and apparent ramp rates when comparing at 050 lift. Trying to make a comparison with 289 heads where intake valve orientation is to the stock piston reliefs is somewhat apples to oranges and was not the intent of my post. My intent is to advise those intending to purchase the TFS head and take advantage of the 58cc vs 61 and use a head gasket with 039 vs 048 compressed thickness that you can do this with some degree of safety with the Crower 15513 and still get the benefit of duration-overlap- performance characteristics. All things being equal in terms of "valve timing events" gross lift does matter both as an arithmetic axiom and in a practical sense of measuring the clearance with a dial indicator on the valve while rotation the engine through the critical area of 20deg BTDC and 20 or so degrees ATDC and taking measurements every 2 deg or so. My apologies for the confusion and I will refrain from future posts due to my stupidity of where appropriate subject matter should be rendered on this sight. However, and going back to my original thread, if you are contemplating these TFS heads and looking for a cam that will end able their use without fly cutting or special pistons, the Crower cam is an excellent work around.
Logged
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
Global Moderator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8394


Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2014, 10:42:37 pm »

After you have been here a little, you will realize that your findings were already well known around here. After some more time, you will understand why Joel posted what he did about Max lift.

Given a proper lobe design, you could have easily ran a .600" lift cam with those pistons. On the other hand, some .500" designs would have a ton of clearance issues.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22510


Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2014, 11:52:48 pm »

Notwithstanding my appreciation for a response, I would like (for the sake of clarification, but not controversy) to reconcile my statement which was somewhat misquoted/misunderstood with respect to PTV clearance. My position is quite the antithesis of the respondent insofar far as gross valve lift DOES matter and more specially in regard to the cylinder head mentioned TFS 51410010-m58.

Again..... gross valve lift does not matter for possible PtV issues...... now, PARTIAL valve lift around the exhaust-to-intake crossover events or overlap, which is controlled by events timing and lobe profiles?.... absolutely.

These heads, by virtue of reorientation of the intake valve, render the stock piston reliefs "of no effect" based on a composite of intake valve size (2.02") and inclination to the piston due to the aforementioned reorientation. The intake valve perimeter, or eyebrow if you will, makes contact with the piston above the relief (which I verified with the clay) such that one might as well have a flat top piston. The exhaust valve orientation remains at/close to stock such that your rarely here mention of PTV issues on the exhaust side with these heads as opposed to intake. Perhaps I should have posted this somewhere else, however, I chose the OTS camshaft forum since in the case of Crower 15513, it provided a remedy to the problem of PTV associated specifically with this head and desired use of aggressive cams. I noted when researching my build that TFS, Comp Cams! Lunati all "chase each other" with grinds/profiles that are but an eyelash difference, as opposed to the Crower grind with significantly less "gross lift" but with a similar grind in terms of valve timing events and apparent ramp rates when comparing at 050 lift.

And again....."gross lift" is not a determinant for possible PtV issues. Suggest you review the explanations + gif animation at http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,57.0.html. On the other hand, have I dealt/tinkered/worked on TFS TW setups with a Stg2 or more aggressive cams... with stock pistons?.... absolutely.... and 1.72 rockers to boost.

Nevertheless though, what is the logic behind accruing gross valve lift with possible PtV mishaps when its phasing with the piston motion puts them both when they are well away one from the other?.... regardless of their typical gross valve lift values in the .550"+ range?

Trying to make a comparison with 289 heads where intake valve orientation is to the stock piston reliefs is somewhat apples to oranges and was not the intent of my post. My intent is to advise those intending to purchase the TFS head and take advantage of the 58cc vs 61 and use a head gasket with 039 vs 048 compressed thickness that you can do this with some degree of safety with the Crower 15513 and still get the benefit of duration-overlap- performance characteristics. All things being equal in terms of "valve timing events" gross lift does matter both as an arithmetic axiom and in a practical sense of measuring the clearance with a dial indicator on the valve while rotation the engine through the critical area of 20deg BTDC and 20 or so degrees ATDC and taking measurements every 2 deg or so.

You actually contradict that axiom you mention..... so lets give it the litmus test..... does gross or full valve lift happen between 20° BTDC or 20° ATDC? If not (which is the case), how is that variable added to that formula? Or don't you know about other cases with a lower gross valve lift result (below .450") that DO cause PtV issues regardless of piston geometry/cylinder head configuration?

 The 289 heads example, regardless it is an inline 20° head, was simply used as a gross real case exaggeration that has never required any special attention to enlarge the piston notches regardless of its .583" gross valve lift. Would it be different if a set of TFS TW heads are used?..... nope. BTSTDTMT.  Wink

Again, if you follow the piston-valve kinematics examples, you will realize and understand the facts.


My apologies for the confusion and I will refrain from future posts due to my stupidity of where appropriate subject matter should be rendered on this sight. However, and going back to my original thread, if you are contemplating these TFS heads and looking for a cam that will end able their use without fly cutting or special pistons, the Crower cam is an excellent work around.

The Crower is not the only alternative under those same conditions as empirically proven on this side... and no need to "apologize" or "refrain" here..... provided you understand and realize that posting, is not an immunity "Carte-Blanche" for not getting questioned and required proof, asked.  ... for example....... and going back to the events @.050" listed as proof......

Quote
The 15513 advanced 4° is Exh. 1° ATDC / Int. 6° BTDC @.050" and a +7° overlap.
The XE274HR and the TFS Stg2 advanced 4° are Exh. 0° ATDC / Int. 4° BTDC @.050" and a +4°.

Here's the breakdown...

The Crower 15513 will be @.050" lobe lift on the intake 6° BTDC and increasing. IOW.... it will have the intake valve open above 0.50" lift @TDC x rocker ratio.

The XE274 and Stg2 will have it @.050" 4° BTDC and above it at TDC. HOWEVER, are their flank and ramp curves that much aggressive over the 15513 to cause the intake to get closer to the piston?

By the same token:

The Crower 15513 will be @.050" lobe lift on the exhaust 1° ATDC and decreasing. IOW.... it will have the exhaust valve open above 0.50" lift @TDC x rocker ratio.

The XE274 and Stg2 will have it @.050" 0° BTDC and decreasing. HOWEVER, are their flank and ramp curves that much aggressive over the 15513 to cause the exhaust to get closer to the piston by dwelling close to 0.050" lift past TDC?

After you have been here a little, you will realize that your findings were already well known around here. After some more time, you will understand why Joel posted what he did about Max lift.

Given a proper lobe design, you could have easily ran a .600" lift cam with those pistons. On the other hand, some .500" designs would have a ton of clearance issues.

Exactly!
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
t-boltbill
2stroke
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Location:
1964 Thunderbolt replica


« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 10:25:20 am »

My point of "gross valve lift does matter" is based on the arithmetic axiom of third grade math (simple addition and/or subtraction) inasmuch as the nominal difference of 030 lift between the cam shafts noted compared to the 15513 will extrapolate throughout a measured series of timing events. Very simply, the valve timing events you describe, which by the way are for the purpose of decreeing the cam and make no mention whatsoever to the amount/extent of valve lift occurring as you move past 050 tappet lift. The amount/extent of valve lift moving past that point will vary greatly between cam shafts based on lobe profile, how aggressive the ramps are, etc. If you place the different cams in an engine and measure the amount of lift at the valve throughout various described events in proximity to TDC, you will find (as I did) that the amount of lift will vary by a fairly close factor of the nominal difference in the gross lift between the cams. I fully understand that gross lift in and of itself (particularly where it is occurring relationally to where the piston is at in the stroke) has nothing to do with PTV, nothing could be more true. However, what you are trying to conclude (theoretically) is that the lift is identical among these cams throughout the critical/various stages just before and after TDC and I am saying factually it is not. In order for your theory to be correct, when grinding a cam, one could have identical lobe profiles and then simply lengthen or shorten the lobe to adjust for gross lift. Lobe height is what determines gross lift and when it becomes measurably altered, the entire profile of the grind must change to accommodate, hence the amount of lift at varying points changes, although not necessarily in absolute direct proportion. If you don't believe what I am telling you, buy the Crower and measure the amount of valve lift occurring through the critical period of clearance events I.e. 20 degrees before -20 degrees after when compared to one of the other cams noted, or any cam you choose for that matter with a meaningful nominal difference in gross lift. If somehow you get identical/nearly identical readings of valve lift, it is contrary to the experiment I made.  Quoting timing events at 050 tappet lift and making no measure or mention of the extent of corresponding valve lift between those measured events , which again varies from cam to cam, can result in an erroneous and catastrophic conclusion. Which is why the good folks at TFS put the little red tag on those heads and state (somewhat incorrectly) that they only work with pistons designed for their use.
Logged
347HO
A-1 Super Genious / Director of Maintenance
Section Moderator
Big Block
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12850


Location: Seattle, Washington
I believe they landed on the moon.


« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 11:53:10 am »

... I fully understand that gross lift in and of itself (particularly where it is occurring relationally to where the piston is at in the stroke) has nothing to do with PTV, nothing could be more true. However, what you are trying to conclude (theoretically) is that the lift is identical among these cams throughout the critical/various stages just before and after TDC and I am saying factually it is not.


Again..... gross valve lift does not matter for possible PtV issues...... now, PARTIAL valve lift around the exhaust-to-intake crossover events or overlap, which is controlled by events timing and lobe profiles?.... absolutely.


The ramp ratio or % between degrees will be very similar whatever the lobe lift unless spring life and seat life is not a factor. (when comparing same camshaft categories ie hyd roller, solid roller...)
Logged




... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
t-boltbill
2stroke
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Location:
1964 Thunderbolt replica


« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 01:06:36 pm »

My deepest apologies to anyone/all who have endured this thread thus far since it has clearly diverged from (my original intent) which was to render a simple testament of an OTS cam that worked for providing sufficient PTV clearance on a very popular/desirable cylinder head and gasket combo. The TFS stage 2 did NOT have adequate clearance and rather than go the route of fly cutting or replacing pistons, thicker head gasket, retarded valve timing, (or worse put everything on craigslist/eBay and get pennies on the dollar like myriad others, I stumbled onto an OTS cam that provided a cost effective remedy and the only reason I took a shot at it was the advertised difference in "gross valve lift" and the hope that this would accrue enough throughout critical periods in timing events. What seems to have gotten lost in all this, notwithstanding statements of " similar, likely, possibly" is that I took the time to measure with a dial indicator (for the sake of comparison) valve lift at the valve (not the lobe) and note that this cam was ground such that it provided sufficient relief for a critical measurement. Since I have actually ground cams for small single cylinder 4 stroke racing go carts and have some practical experience in development of lobe contours, it did not seem unreasonable or confounding that the "difference in gross lift" had occurred at some point in the arc beneficial to badly needed remedial clearance. In closing and for the benefit of those fascinated by technocratic/demagogic endless debates from empirical theorists, by all means carry on and build your engines accordingly. For those considering, or who have purchased, the TFS head I described and are scared by the warnings or discovered their theoretical cam selection did not work. All I can say is what I set out to say, this cam worked for me. No need for anyone's additional response, I won't make the mistake of coming back to this sight and trying to post some relevant practical applications or experience in this lifetime,
Logged
347HO
A-1 Super Genious / Director of Maintenance
Section Moderator
Big Block
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12850


Location: Seattle, Washington
I believe they landed on the moon.


« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2014, 02:24:36 pm »

... However, what you are trying to conclude (theoretically) is that the lift is identical among these cams throughout the critical/various stages just before and after TDC and I am saying factually it is not. In order for your theory to be correct, when grinding a cam, one could have identical lobe profiles and then simply lengthen or shorten the lobe to adjust for gross lift. Lobe height is what determines gross lift and when it becomes measurably altered, the entire profile of the grind must change to accommodate, hence the amount of lift at varying points changes, although not necessarily in absolute direct proportion.
I don't disagree the "nose" of the lobe dictates Gross Lift.
No one so far disagrees the lobes' Profile changes with Gross Lift...  both leading and flank.
There are many on this site with knowledge (maybe less with experience) when Gross Lift has nothing to do with Net Lift and the ramp rates along with spring rate dictates Net lift.  So, knowing this...  we know the ramps would not be identical even if Gross Lift is.

I cannot be the only person here whom appreciates your data with this individual application.  While I already know and experienced what you experienced...  just not the exact parts used...  is what I saying here.
Logged




... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22510


Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2014, 10:42:19 pm »

My deepest apologies to anyone/all who have endured this thread thus far since it has clearly diverged from (my original intent) which was to render a simple testament of an OTS cam that worked for providing sufficient PTV clearance on a very popular/desirable cylinder head and gasket combo.

 Say What??.... AGAIN... discussions here are not a problem. Your continuous apology asking rhetoric is not required.... as long as you also understand a few details. Like for example..... the fact other OTS cams do provide sufficient PtV clearance as many of us have empirically checked as well.

The TFS stage 2 did NOT have adequate clearance and rather than go the route of fly cutting or replacing pistons, thicker head gasket, retarded valve timing, (or worse put everything on craigslist/eBay and get pennies on the dollar like myriad others, I stumbled onto an OTS cam that provided a cost effective remedy and the only reason I took a shot at it was the advertised difference in "gross valve lift" and the hope that this would accrue enough throughout critical periods in timing events.

And the results of that comparison are? Again. the TFS Stg2 is an X-303 intake lobe (Crane HR-222/339) and Crane HR-230/352 lobe on the exhaust. Why the difference when the Stg2 is 224/232 and not 222/230, you may ask?..... simple.... tappet diameter design spec.

You mention mapping the lobe profile across its functional window and guess what?.... I have done plenty of times to even confirm my statement above empirically.... not based on theories.

Now.... since apparently you have done both, can you post the duration events for the .050", .100"and .200" lobe lift events?

What seems to have gotten lost in all this, notwithstanding statements of " similar, likely, possibly" is that I took the time to measure with a dial indicator (for the sake of comparison) valve lift at the valve (not the lobe) and note that this cam was ground such that it provided sufficient relief for a critical measurement. Since I have actually ground cams for small single cylinder 4 stroke racing go carts and have some practical experience in development of lobe contours, it did not seem unreasonable or confounding that the "difference in gross lift" had occurred at some point in the arc beneficial to badly needed remedial clearance. In closing and for the benefit of those fascinated by technocratic/demagogic endless debates from empirical theorists, by all means carry on and build your engines accordingly.

Aside all the above, do you have a table, graph or documented results to share? Or don't you see the fact you literally kill a technical discussion using the classic.... "trust me, I've done it"... but no records whatsoever shared? By the same token, don't you see you have also used an oxymoron expression? ... i.e. "empirical theorists"...... or didn't you know empiricism depends on observations, data and facts whereas, theories don't?

For those considering, or who have purchased, the TFS head I described and are scared by the warnings or discovered their theoretical cam selection did not work. All I can say is what I set out to say, this cam worked for me. No need for anyone's additional response, I won't make the mistake of coming back to this sight and trying to post some relevant practical applications or experience in this lifetime,

I see.....  Dissapointed.... it is what you say and God forbid and damn whomever has a different EXPERIENCE or FACTS. My Bad..... yet the fact remains..... a TFS TW 58cc head is not limited to a Crower 15513 due to possible PtV clearance issues.



Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22510


Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2014, 11:55:39 pm »

 Oh Well!.... Mr. t-boltbill has decided to request a deletion of his account after getting questioned and asked for proof he has failed to provide. What a pitty....  Disgust

For him or anybody else, try inf to pass pseudo-facts w/out facts.... this is the line. Provide facts and not opinions that is, if you really want to prove a point.

His case was focused on the TFS TW heads with the 58cc chambers and the utilization of normal inline pistons instead of the TFS-TW piston crown ones. At the same time, he still wanted to establish a direct relationship between camshaft induced gross lift and the possibility of PtV issues.... erroneously.

For such exercise he chose to ID that the TFS Stg2 cam (224/232 @.050 .339"/.352" lobe lift 112 LSA 107 ICL..... would not clear the TFS-TW heads using typical inline crown pistons.... and that a Crower 228/236 .320"/332" lobe lift 112 LSA 108 ICL.... is a "done deal" to prevent ptV issues.

Obviously, no graphs or specific results, including tolerance results....... were ever provided..... just a word of mouth and imfo was shared..... even-though. such specific details were asked for.

NOW...... being the sick details analyst I know I am, KNOWING that a Stg2 cam has cleared with those heads.... I took it upon myself to demonstrate why that info is simply a crock. So here it goes for your benefit.  Naughty

The following graphs are the cam lobe position profiles for the Stg2 and the Crower 15513. The latter, since the lobe master info is not available, nor provided by the OP.... follows a lamer profile.Since PtV issues are focused on the 20° BTDC and 20° ATDC window... NEVER at gross lift points for either valve, I have generated the following lobe profiles within that window... of both cam profiles, for YOU to compare and see the misinformation that was tried to be passed.

This is the Crower 15513 following a mild HRT profile (136° @.200" lobe lift)


This is the TFS Stg2 profile with its 141° duration @.200" lobe lift.


Now please explain..... how those Quote-Unquote "huge" differences at the lobe, would cause a PtV issue with 58cc chamber TFS-TW heads?


* Crower_15513.jpg (201.92 KB, 1323x781 - viewed 1816 times.)

* TFS_Stg2.jpg (203.94 KB, 1321x769 - viewed 1747 times.)
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22510


Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 12:08:17 am »

Ohh!...  ...and  By The Way.... the Crower 15513 intake lobe is identical to a HRT Iskendarian intake lobe with a @.200" duration of 139° instead of the lame 136° used above..... making those clearance results differences above, null or irrelevant...... for both... intake and exhaust. Reason why.... as I have said, a similar setup with stock pistons and a Stg2 cam..... cleared.... for the past 4 years it has been in use.
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22510


Location: Puerto Rico
Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 12:23:34 am »

NOW.... if you still cannot stand a site that asks for data and proof, feel free to request for your account deletion again..... but please, drop the rhetoric mambo-jumbo regarding arithmetic axioms when you choose to not even mention the possibility of those lobe masters being symmetric or asymmetric, as an example. Do you know the difference? FYI though.... the 228/.320" intake lobe master spec is very close to:

275° Adv. - 228°@.050" - 196°@.100" - 139° @.200" - 61°@.300"
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
juiced coupe
Six figures worth of don't give a f*ck
Global Moderator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8394


Location: Pascagoula, MS
The land mass between New Orleans and Mobile


« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 03:11:32 am »

Oh Well!.... Mr. t-boltbill has decided to request a deletion of his account after getting questioned and asked for proof he has failed to provide. What a pitty....  Disgust

No big loss. I seriously doubt he would have provided anything of value to the sight.

At least he figured it out early on. Some others have been here for a while, and have yet to figure out that they are useless.
Logged

Doing more with less, or something like that.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor

I honestly don't get it.

I'm sweating, my heart is racing, my clutch foot is twichin', and my right arm punched the computer screen doing an involentary 2-3 shift while reading all that. 
289nate
"IL BUONO"
Global Moderator
Big Block
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11467


Location: Los Angeles

« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2014, 10:52:27 am »

It's funny to me when someone presents data on a public forum and falls apart when it is challenged, examined, discussed with any scrutiny, asked to provided more details, etc.  What would the scientific community be like if that was everyone's attitude?

Sounded like a cool cruise night nice project.  Shame he wasn't up for a technical discussion about a tech post on a tech site.
Logged

\'65 fastback pump gas 289, 4.56 gears, and faceplated T5.  11.123 at 122.4
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines



408 Stroker