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Author Topic: Dish piston at 10.50 WILL make more power than a flat top at 10.50???  (Read 25033 times)
RFast
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« Reply #195 on: January 12, 2007, 11:22:57 am »

modern cylinder heads have the features built in ,  yates , chi , sp2p,p7, bt ,etc. . talking in general of dish pistons, open dish and reverse done.   so saying a dish piston makes more power over a flat with same CR covers both types plus heads. so is the dish the direct result for more power or  the chamber?  with the dish part of the charge is in the piston and carried down the cylinder.     on testing flow on any head , centering the vale will give a happy reading cyl. walls shroud the valves, so bore size is best be match . and no didnt read the whole thread, stop when the stroke got thrown in.  pulling hard on port can be from added stroke or con rod lenght. talking dish vs flat
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« Reply #196 on: January 12, 2007, 12:07:31 pm »

Quote
Jay started too give some valuable insight but he stopped at step one.

Maybe he will give some more.

Exactly.

What in the hell happened to step 2? When Jay & yourself painfully helped along the way to figure step one out it somehow then went from BDC all the way to firing the plug.

I think 2 very important things were missed along the way (caused by one single valve timing event).

Well lets start with the piston at BDC and now it starts to swing the other way.

One timing event left in between firing the plug..... now what about intake reversion and dynamic compression?

 Plus One What He Said Focus Good Job! Good Post Feedback Please Please

I've got a whole post on another thread that is the beginnings of this subject exactly (the reversion in particular).  I think it's called '3 or 5 angle valve job?'

I think we're beyond the point where we're going to convince everyone that the dish makes more power.  Some people understood, as was hoped, others won't take hold of it.  It's ok, this isn't a government funded school room...there's no AMES tests at the end, and no one is being forced to learn here.  The information is there for anyone to go back and see, if they really want to understand, the door won't be shut.

The piston is at bottom dead center, the cylinder contains the majority of the intake charge, and our rotating assembly has just come around and begun the upswing.

*Waiting patiently for the next melee to begin.*

Cris 
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« Reply #197 on: January 12, 2007, 12:53:34 pm »

BAD95GTS:
Thanks for the info on the progression on the bore & stroke info that led to the dish.  I was going to ask just such a question.   
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« Reply #198 on: January 12, 2007, 12:58:11 pm »

Plus One What He Said Focus Good Job! Good Post Feedback Please Please

I've got a whole post on another thread that is the beginnings of this subject exactly (the reversion in particular).  I think it's called '3 or 5 angle valve job?'

I think we're beyond the point where we're going to convince everyone that the dish makes more power.  Some people understood, as was hoped, others won't take hold of it.  It's ok, this isn't a government funded school room...there's no AMES tests at the end, and no one is being forced to learn here.  The information is there for anyone to go back and see, if they really want to understand, the door won't be shut.

The piston is at bottom dead center, the cylinder contains the majority of the intake charge, and our rotating assembly has just come around and begun the upswing.

*Waiting patiently for the next melee to begin.*

Cris 

The intake reversion means intake air going back out of the cylinder because the piston is starting to go up? What effect does valve overlap and scavenging have in preventing this loss? Since you say "the majority of the intake charge" is in the cylinder by the time the piston hits BDC, and since we *are* talking about an engine with 100% + VE, does that mean valve overlap and scavenging help in getting the rest of the intake charge in the cylinder?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 01:00:14 pm by 8950lx » Logged

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« Reply #199 on: January 12, 2007, 01:00:22 pm »

Ahh my mistake, my mind was somehow on exhaust reversion...talk about jumping the gun!!

But by all means, lets follow this thing through its stages!!
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mxracer652
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« Reply #200 on: January 12, 2007, 02:21:33 pm »

Thanks for those articles Bad95, that is one thing I miss, having an SAE & ASME membership to see papers like that.

I really hope this keeps going, although I don't think some will ever be convinced.

Kind of like trying to convince people that 0.999....(infinitely repeating 9's) is exactly equal to 1.
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« Reply #201 on: January 12, 2007, 02:52:25 pm »

hopefully the unconvinced will stop arguing or check out of the thread so the rest of us can benefit from this discussion. 
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« Reply #202 on: January 12, 2007, 03:08:27 pm »

OK!....lets see some summaries first, step 2 is another monster thread on its own .....this is my view of the benefits of a 10.5 CR setup with a dished piston over a flat top, only looking at the intake stroke, within the cylinder's confinement, ignoring the head, CC config, etc:

1. Net result of the dish on the piston crown = added stroke
    If you do a simple calculation of the resulting position of the piston by subtracting the dish, the net positional result @BDC is further down in the cylinder, hence the effect of a bigger stroke.

2. Surface area on a dished piston is greater than a flat top.
    This increase in surface area (downward/concave) = more suction capability = increased airflow velocity = more flow = more power. Although a dome piston = more surface area....it's in the wrong direction (upward/convex)...not having the same results.

Nothing fancy or complicated to understand/visualize.......Now....I'm ready for step 2.......

Anyone?

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RFast
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« Reply #203 on: January 12, 2007, 03:25:04 pm »

reading back post, one said changeing flats to dish, no other changes, cant be done-CR would be lower. so thats not test. now a dish piston that mirrors the chamber is said to make more power that a full round one with the same volume. now heres the one that needs to be explain  both pistons have the same volume at BDC- whats up with that if its the dish ?
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« Reply #204 on: January 12, 2007, 03:31:34 pm »


Kind of like trying to convince people that 0.999....(infinitely repeating 9's) is exactly equal to 1.



uuuhhhhh almost being whole is the same a being whole???? 

nope.....you wont convince me of that  Wink

and no....I wont go into why on this thread and probably not on this forum Smiley



ok...back to the great engine tech Smiley


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« Reply #205 on: January 12, 2007, 04:18:36 pm »

i'm with you on that.  the only thing that is EXACTLY equal to anything is itself, otherwise it's just very very close to being equal.
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« Reply #206 on: January 12, 2007, 04:43:30 pm »

reading back post, one said changeing flats to dish, no other changes, cant be done-CR would be lower. so thats not test. now a dish piston that mirrors the chamber is said to make more power that a full round one with the same volume. now heres the one that needs to be explain  both pistons have the same volume at BDC- whats up with that if its the dish ?
Don't ...no ........ Sad Sigh....check the following:

Post #1:
Quote
And a dish piston at 10.50 WILL make more power than a flat top at 10.50.
the key word is AT or @ 10.5 CR

and

Quote
I'll take a 14.2cc dish with 54cc head vs a 65cc head with a 3.2cc dish ANY DAY of the week.
Post at Page 10 ....http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,3439.msg33944.html#msg33944



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Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
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« Reply #207 on: January 12, 2007, 04:48:13 pm »

I think the reason folks are having so much trouble understanding this thread is that it is 15 freakin pages long with to many back and forths confusing people. 

Time to start a separate post about the 2nd phase of this "idea" and move the best info posts of this thread to the tech library!
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« Reply #208 on: January 12, 2007, 05:03:22 pm »

 Plus One
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« Reply #209 on: January 12, 2007, 05:21:37 pm »

 What He Said Exactly!
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