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Author Topic: Dish piston at 10.50 WILL make more power than a flat top at 10.50???  (Read 28942 times)
Joel5.0
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« on: January 09, 2007, 09:58:59 am »

OK!....a heads question became a discussion on piston/CC config/CR/ etc.....triggered by the statement from Jay below.....and it ended up becoming a  Thread Hijacking. Due to the interest and flow of great information it has evolved into, and for the benefit of everybody (YT included.... Naughty)...I decided to make it a topic itself, and attach the posts regarding the topic.....so here it goes......

People, people, people.......This is way too easy.

You buy a 347 kit that is +.060 over AFTER you have sonic checked your block to INSURE it'll .060" over.  You buy the kit with a STD SBF rod journal but you buy the rod with a 2.00 rod journal.  Yes the guy (unless he has his head in his ass) is gonna tell you the parts will not fit.  You say yes you know, you are going to modify them.

Just about (read again) just about *any* SBF 3.400" stroke crank with go 3.500" by turning the rod down from STD SBF or from 2.100" SBC.  Then the engine BUILDER cuts the deck on the block as little as possible to make it square and flat.  Once this is done, you take your 347 piston in which the ring is down .250" and you get the rod and pistons together.  One at a time, you mock up the rod & piston together, and get it on the crank.  YES, it IS going to stick out.  You mill the top of the piston "X" amount to make it flush with the block.  This should only be .050" leaving the ring .200" down.  You STILL have all 3 rings, and you still have a MILE to go.  Start with a 14.2cc dish and the compression is as follows with CANFIELD 195 heads:

54cc = 10.75
58cc = 10.25
65cc = 9.55

remember, the dish will not be 14.2cc any more.  It'll be smaller.  And a dish piston at 10.50 WILL make more power than a flat top at 10.50.

You have 362.5 CID and it'll rev up like a 2 stroke banshee.

Jay - Diet Pepsi

 Wonder, Ponder......I'm still dwelling on that topic myself.......Taking notes
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 02:27:09 pm by Joel5.0 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 10:33:41 am »

Weeeeel...I went to Probes web site.

A 347 flat top piston(VR 4 cc) shows 474 grams.
A 347 dish top(14.2 cc) weighs in at 451 grams.
(both are 1.175 C/H for use with the 5.315 rod...same pin)

Less weight to move Up and Down?

Tim  Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 10:49:25 am »

More surface area on a dished piston?
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Jay Allen
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 11:06:35 am »

More surface area on a dished piston?
Closest thing yet.

Expand upon this.

 Naughty

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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 11:12:25 am »

if surface area is a factor, perhaps the expanding gasses will be able to apply more force to the top of a dished piston, since it's PSI (pounds per square inch).

that's my best guess...how far off is it?
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 12:58:09 pm »

I'm not seeing how the dished or flat piston would affect the force actually applied to the piston in the direction (down) would do any good.  You would only apply cylinder pressure PSI x the projceted area perpendicular to the direction of movement to get the force applied in the direction of movement.
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 03:12:16 pm »

I'm not seeing how the dished or flat piston would affect the force actually applied to the piston in the direction (down) would do any good.  You would only apply cylinder pressure PSI x the projceted area perpendicular to the direction of movement to get the force applied in the direction of movement.

your right, kinda, their the diagonal secion of the dish will have two force vectors, one straight down in direction of piston motion and one directly into the side of the cylnderwall.... and...

PSI is just a ratio, so if you increase surface area without increasing pressure the the PSI will go down (don't worrie the total force acting throught the center of mass is still the same assumign a few other varibles are kept the same)  unless you are implying the pressure increases somehow from the  increase of sufrace area of the piston face...

which sounds pretty ridiclous unless you are talking about flame prompagtion,gas flow in the CC, etc being benafited by this.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 03:46:29 pm by 352Ford » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 04:40:05 pm »

You guys are getting off track here....

More surface area on a dished piston?

That's the closest yet....I could tell you, but that would be cheating eh Jay? =).  Maybe if Woody approves it I'll give a pair of 'top secret' SBFTech quarter window/tool box stickers to the guy that gets it right!

That should get you all thinking!!

Cris 
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2007, 04:57:23 pm »

efficency is why.

the surface are of the dish piston should mirror the cc of the cylinder head therefore matching the burn area and creating a more efficent burn.

The light weight of the dish piston would also be a benefit.
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 06:33:33 pm »

I would think that the conical dish in the piston would create a divergence at the end of the combustion chamber then convergence in the pistonas the flame travels.  Not sure if that would stop the swirl. 
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 06:38:38 pm »

Why can't it be something simple? Like... a dish piston has more volume...more volume....more air/fuel= more power.
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 08:15:35 pm »

misleading on dish is lighter thats  probe way to save manf. cost. just useing a ftat top & mill in dish, a purpse built flat top is light but more money
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 09:51:47 pm »

in this case steve, more volume=less power since it makes the cr lower.
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 10:43:24 pm »

in this case steve, more volume=less power since it makes the cr lower.

but if you think about it... at bdc you would have a little more room to fill the cylinder with the air. which means more air to compress... im guess here but maybe more air would make the same compression ratio at tdc?
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 11:02:45 pm »

well, since the piston volume is the same at bdc as it is at tdc, the volumes offset on another, if that makes sense.  basically, cr is volume at bdc "divided by" volume at tdc.  if you remove the constants (piston cc's, head cc's, etc) then piston volume doesn't factor in.  so basically, it's already accounted for in the cr calculation.
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