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Author Topic: Quartehorse tuning help newbie  (Read 31965 times)
cheese_05_70
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« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2011, 11:08:18 pm »

Thats what I did just wanted to make sure i was doing it right. Then this evening i started it and unhooked IAC and it died (cold). I didnt readjust it, I just let it warm up and then it would idle with it unhooked.

It likes to hunt for idle. And tomorrow night i will double check the base idle reset and set what you told me and get another log.

I dont know what to look for to tell whats going on but from my novice eyes that looks like what is happening. I wouldnt of put 2 and 2 together without your help but from looking at the log at idle my timing is anywhere from 18 - 30*..

 How can you tell what the flags are spitting out?
Would it help if i had a registered version of EA to help me diagnose things?

thanks
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
85_GT
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« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2011, 08:57:49 am »

Heres is a log at idle at operating temp. About midway through i unplugged IAC and then plugged it back in at the end.

My ISCkams dont move. I would like to see my idle more stable than this.

How do you guys look at these logs through EA?

Thanks
Took a quick look.  Doesn't look horrible. Your ISCkam is moving.  It's growing slowly (doesn't move that fast) and your IPSIBR looks maxed out.  What is your PSIBRM and PSIBRN set to? .4?  Since it's growing with a max'd out IPSIBR, your ITHBMA is too high.  Knock it down by .4 and see what it does.

You say it's hunting.  Didn't really see that much variation in the log.  Sure it's not lope you're talking about?  Hunting is when RPM's keep swing a couple hundred up and down at slow rate of about a 1-2 second rate.

Your spark is all over the place as the EEC uses spark for rapid spark control.  ISC control is slower.
The spark control is in function FN841N: Idle - Spark Mult vs Neutral RPM Error
Mine did the same and Crey8 recommend some values to 'tone down' it's affect since it in itself can exaggerate the condition.  Like was mentioned.  You lock you timing to see if it's the cause.  My function has me at 26deg at idle with no error (rpm delta from desired RPM).  You can see it's affect when you unplugged the ISC.  Idle dropped, and EEC tried to correct with the function by maxing out spark to 30deg.

When you set your idle speed, what value did you mod?  Should have been NUBASE.  There is another scalar, IDLRPM that needs to be set a little higher then your NUBASE.  If actual RPM's exceed IDLRPM, this tells the EEC it is not in an IDLE condition and IDLE control stops.  You look like you're ok as your ISCFLAG is 1 meaning it's in RPM control.  ISFLAG is 2 which is correct, neutral with no AC on.  Hence matches up with ISCKAM2.

Unplugging the ISC when it's cold, I would expect it to die.  I would consider that normal.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
cheese_05_70
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« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2011, 10:30:28 am »

I will recheck everything tonight. I thought the kam moved faster sorry. Ok so I want ipsibr below 0.400. Pisibrm-n are factory settings.

I guess hunting and to be more stable isn't what I should of used. It seems erratic when's its idle just doesn't sound and feel right.

I will do that tonight lock the timing like fid said. Is yours locked too? Or you just adjusted the table or function?

I modified the scalar above ithbma and nothing else for idle.
For an 850 idle rpm modify nubase to 825 then idlrpm to 850? Something like that?

Im just trying to give as much info as I can. I have never messed with or tried to understand any of this. So I feel like a retard but I hope its just the.learning process. Im hands on so I can read until im blue in the face and still don't get it. Thanks for your time and patience.
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
85_GT
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« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2011, 12:29:24 pm »

Just the learning process, that's all.  No shame.

ipsibr and ISCkam are the equivalent of short term and long term fuel trims.

As ISCkam dials itself in, ipsibr will eventually get itself to 0.  If you let the car idle long enough for that to happen, then that final ISCkam is the amount you need to adjust the ITHBMA by, assuming the ISCkam doesn't get clipped.

There will always be a little bit of movement if you watch it in the dashboard.  Typically as come back down to a stop and relevels itself off.


In either case, letting the kam adjust or correcting ITHBMA, the car will get to idling a little better.  You'll see the cold start RPM increase act more properly, etc.  Only time it will revert is if you rely on the kam and then disconnect the battery.  It will have to relearn again.

The idle quality, that may be the case of the AFR.  I know my cam has idled pretty smoothly in the past with a carb and then the FI that was out of wack.  Now that it is working correctly, I see it likes a richer mixture at idle then the 14.7 that happens when I'm in closed loop.  A little tough to fix with a GUFx strategy.  Can't easily force open loop for just idle.

Your nubase is your target rpm.  So there would be the 850.  It will probably be a few off once you enter it.  Maybe 848, something like that.  For idlrpm, you could put in something like a 1000.

I don't have my timing locked.  I adjusted the function and let other adders/multipliers do there thing.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
cheese_05_70
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« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2011, 04:42:12 pm »

That makes more sense. The way the first post about ipsibr was posted made me think it was supposed to stay at. 400. It now makes a little more sense it started to come down so I upped ithma to get it back to 0.400.

I will get to it tonight. Im excited last night I was aggravated cause 2+2 was = 5. Once I get on the right track things make mote sense.

Thanks keep the lesson coming.
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
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« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2011, 07:05:34 pm »

That makes more sense. The way the first post about ipsibr was posted made me think it was supposed to stay at. 400. It now makes a little more sense it started to come down so I upped ithma to get it back to 0.400.

I will get to it tonight. Im excited last night I was aggravated cause 2+2 was = 5. Once I get on the right track things make mote sense.

Thanks keep the lesson coming.
Just to be clear, the goal is to get ipsibr AND isckam as close as possible to 0.  If your isckam is climbing positive, you need to LOWER ithma to get isckam to go down.

And the opposite is true too, if isckam settles at a negative value, then increase ithma by that amount.

This should get you to an isckam that's better (less) the +-.01.  I'll typically hit about .003-5.  At that point it's good enough.

Oops, you can disregard this, as I proof read and reread your post, I realize you got it.  But this might help others.  Maybe one day we'll get merc69 into efi.  Wink
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
bender460
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« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2011, 07:44:54 pm »

That makes more sense. The way the first post about ipsibr was posted made me think it was supposed to stay at. 400. It now makes a little more sense it started to come down so I upped ithma to get it back to 0.400.

I will get to it tonight. Im excited last night I was aggravated cause 2+2 was = 5. Once I get on the right track things make mote sense.

Thanks keep the lesson coming.
Just to be clear, the goal is to get ipsibr AND isckam as close as possible to 0.  If your isckam is climbing positive, you need to LOWER ithma to get isckam to go down.

And the opposite is true too, if isckam settles at a negative value, then increase ithma by that amount.

This should get you to an isckam that's better (less) the +-.01.  I'll typically hit about .003-5.  At that point it's good enough.

Oops, you can disregard this, as I proof read and reread your post, I realize you got it.  But this might help others.  Maybe one day we'll get merc69 into efi.  Wink

   That would be the day..  Grin
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cheese_05_70
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« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2011, 11:18:36 pm »

I looked and cant find what fid was talking about. I found everything else and it makes sense on (+-0.400). I was adjusting nubase but not the other idle rpm. So that should help i would think. I got that setup saved and then i was going to do what fid said and try it both ways. But i cant find any global spark and spark multiplier.

69merc im sure will really stick to his carbs after he reads this thread of mind.

Thanks
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2011, 06:34:15 pm »

Base Idle is good i rechecked it. Here is another log with just the idle rpms adjusted right and ithma lowered. i still got to adjust it and reset kam but at least i understand what its doing.

I couldnt lock out timing like fid said to do i couldnt figure it out. Then my computer died but here is a log with iac plugged in and unplugged. It idles better not near as much swing on start up. Still feels and sounds a little choppy at times. Its not cam lope cause it is more of a vibration and too fast for cam lope. Like its struggling a little.

Thanks.

* 2011_Dec_01_16-13-45.csv (558.94 KB - downloaded 198 times.)
* A9LNov212011 New tune idle.BIN (56 KB - downloaded 198 times.)
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
85_GT
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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2011, 07:42:28 pm »

Looking good.  isckam is down about where mine runs.  Fuel kams look great too.
Didn't want to speculate on what values fid was recommending so as not to make the same misunderstanding of I made with what bender said. Smiley

But... here's a template of my current spark timing:
 
idle spark multiplier vs neutral error,
idle spark vs ect
and
idle spark vs rpm

Should work though it came from my GUF1, I edited it for GUFB.

* idle spark for cheese.TXT (1.14 KB - downloaded 203 times.)
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
85_GT
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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2011, 07:53:33 pm »

Maybe one day we'll get merc69 into efi. [/color] Wink

   That would be the day..  Grin

Could you imagine... a 408W from fordstrokers with a 5000 t/c and EFI....
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
fidstang
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« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2011, 03:59:01 pm »



I couldnt lock out timing like fid said to do i couldnt figure it out.

Thanks.


Sorry, my laptop died thanks to a power loss in the middle of a search index.

I'm not sure what the hacks or scalars are for GUFB, in CABZA they are what I listed.

If you want, you can pull the PIP and advance the timing to 20* manually.
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« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2011, 08:36:35 pm »

 To all with efi and those who shy away. There's a reason efi runs well and carbs can't get the same result. I hope 1 day merc69 will join as the rest on this site. Thanks for the lessons here from the one's that donate. Horsepower and mpg in the same sentence.


                  Ray
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cheese_05_70
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« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2012, 07:57:42 am »

Here you go 85_GT. Thanks for the help.

I loaded datalog in for injector slopes and here is what EA spit out.

High 30 Low 29.75

Breakpoint 0.75

I attached Datalog and tune.

* 2012_Apr_10_21-34-37.csv (10854.85 KB - downloaded 419 times.)
* A9L Apr 11 2012 New tune idle spark modified.BIN (56 KB - downloaded 192 times.)
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
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« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2012, 01:22:25 pm »

Just taking a quick look in excel as I don't have EA here, looks like your KAMs were trending downward until they started clipping about 20 minutes into it.  Then something happened and they jumped back up.   Either the eec did it or maybe you changed something on the fly?

Either way looks like you need more fuel.  What are the current injector settings now vs the new recommended?  If that low slope is really less then the high from EA, you may need more injector offset. 

Which 30's do you have, skinnny or fat?  Can't open the bin here either.  What values do you have at 13 and 14v in the offset vs voltage function?

Your MAF values look 'within expected range' for your combo.  Although a little surprising that you could get it that high while still in closed loop.  You were open loop for all of about 4 seconds at one instance.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
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