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Author Topic: Quartehorse tuning help newbie  (Read 31365 times)
cheese_05_70
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2011, 12:19:08 am »

Wrong cranking pw function.  You want the one right above it. Cranking vs ect.

Injector offset vs batt.  That's the toughest one for me.  Ideally, you want to have a common injector with the spec values.  You don't just multiply.  It depends on the injector. Newer 30's actually have larger values then the older style 30s.

Thanks i fixed it in the tune. I'm not quite following what you mean by a common injector with the spec values? how do you tell new 30's from the old ones? or are you refering to ev1 style and ev6 style?
should i just leave offset stock until i datalog and get a WB to know what my afrs are doing? Im not driving the car or starting the car so dont worry yet.

Thanks everyone for there help. i know on this stuff some people do it differently but please dont hesitate to chime in.


Colby
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
cheese_05_70
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2011, 12:21:44 am »

forgot to attach current tune

* A9LNov202011#3.BIN (56 KB - downloaded 177 times.)
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
bender460
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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2011, 09:24:00 am »

Wrong cranking pw function.  You want the one right above it. Cranking vs ect.

Injector offset vs batt.  That's the toughest one for me.  Ideally, you want to have a common injector with the spec values.  You don't just multiply.  It depends on the injector. Newer 30's actually have larger values then the older style 30s.

  First I've heard of cranking vs time being wrong. Really look at the last two tunes... Regardless of where the changes are cranking fuel will be the same.

   As far as load and WOT... You have the scalar Z_WSPKSW enabled. You are pulling WOT spark from your timing table. Your load calculations are going to be different and need to be tuned. I would stay away from enabling Z_WSPKSW for now just set function ( Spark - WOT Advance vs RPM ) to some thing like this....

16383.75   31.00
6000.00   32.00
5000.00   32.00
4500.00   32.00
3500.00   32.00
2800.00   25.00
1800.00   22.00
1000.00   16.00
0.00   0.00

   Maybe 85_GT can enlighten us on how load is calculated.....



 
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92lx
pump gas, N.A. 347
TFS highprts, CI TLSR,
super vic,  4500 TB
MS3X EFI
Ultimate 5400rpm 8" converter C4
Full Team Z front and rear
10.90 at 124......D.A. 6500'
85_GT
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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2011, 09:30:00 am »

Wrong cranking pw function.  You want the one right above it. Cranking vs ect.

Injector offset vs batt.  That's the toughest one for me.  Ideally, you want to have a common injector with the spec values.  You don't just multiply.  It depends on the injector. Newer 30's actually have larger values then the older style 30s.

Thanks i fixed it in the tune. I'm not quite following what you mean by a common injector with the spec values? how do you tell new 30's from the old ones? or are you refering to ev1 style and ev6 style?
should i just leave offset stock until i datalog and get a WB to know what my afrs are doing? Im not driving the car or starting the car so dont worry yet.

Thanks everyone for there help. i know on this stuff some people do it differently but please dont hesitate to chime in.


Colby

By common, I mean ones that are widely used with know injector parameters.  Yes, Ford Racing had the older EV1 style 30 pounders (fat body) and the newer skinny injectors.  Both are 30 but have different offsets, breakpoints, low slopes, and slightly different high slopes.  It be best to pick an injector that all these values are available for.  Plug in those values, and then there is less to tweek.

What injectors do you have?  

Another thing on pulsewidths,  in my version of BE, 2010, build 18.  The displayed and logged pulsewidths do not include the offset value.  Not sure if that has changed with the latest.  The offset is meant to just account for the mechanical delays of the injector.  It's not used in the fuel calculations.  Yet can affect the actual AFR you get.

Thing I have yet to figure out it the cranking pw values entered the actual total pw, or does the offset still get added to the values in the function?
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
85_GT
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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2011, 10:01:58 am »

Wrong cranking pw function.  You want the one right above it. Cranking vs ect.

Injector offset vs batt.  That's the toughest one for me.  Ideally, you want to have a common injector with the spec values.  You don't just multiply.  It depends on the injector. Newer 30's actually have larger values then the older style 30s.

  First I've heard of cranking vs time being wrong. Really look at the last two tunes... Regardless of where the changes are cranking fuel will be the same.

   As far as load and WOT... You have the scalar Z_WSPKSW enabled. You are pulling WOT spark from your timing table. Your load calculations are going to be different and need to be tuned. I would stay away from enabling Z_WSPKSW for now just set function ( Spark - WOT Advance vs RPM ) to some thing like this....

16383.75   31.00
6000.00   32.00
5000.00   32.00
4500.00   32.00
3500.00   32.00
2800.00   25.00
1800.00   22.00
1000.00   16.00
0.00   0.00

   Maybe 85_GT can enlighten us on how load is calculated.....



 
No, he was in the wrong function, not that what he entered was wrong.  He was questioning why cranking vs time was all 1's and asking how to mod it.  He needs to be in cranking vs ect and scale that for his injector change.  Though, I guess if you have for some reason a long crank, you could play with the vs time function to either pull fuel as you keep cranking, or add. 

Yes, agree with bender, keep it simple.  Just use the WOT timing Function instead of the tables for now.

Me, enlighten the master... 

Anyways, you'll notice the tables will use either load or load%.  Spark will use load (VE) and fueling will use load%  Load is percent of actual air getting in versus the theoretical max (based on cubic inches) at any given RPM. 
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
bender460
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« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2011, 01:46:03 pm »

   Crank vs ect is the commanded PW and vs time is an adder. Either way ect or time accomplishes the same thing. Your way.....my way...blah... just don't say I'm wrong. I'ts just two different ways to skin the same cat.

 

   I still can't see where he asked why cranking vs. time was all 1's and how to change it..   I do see him asking if the same correction would apply to injector voltage offset. Injector voltage offset is not only size but actual brand and style specific as well.. Two different brands or styles of the same brand will have a different curve.

 



  I'll dig up a voltage offset curve for the old red top 30's tonight. If that is in fact the injector being used.
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92lx
pump gas, N.A. 347
TFS highprts, CI TLSR,
super vic,  4500 TB
MS3X EFI
Ultimate 5400rpm 8" converter C4
Full Team Z front and rear
10.90 at 124......D.A. 6500'
cheese_05_70
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« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2011, 03:46:23 pm »

Yes I have red top 30s old style im on my phone right now but Im pretty sure I had z_wspk disabled if I don't I wanted it to be. I understand there is different ways so I thank you for your help I dont want u guys to not post because of it.

Should I adjust the vs. Ext and fine tune with the vs. Time or is one way just as good as the other. I don't know if this changes anything but when the car is warm it will not start without giving it gas. When cold fires right up.

BENDER what are you looking at in that last two tunes that shows you that its the same either way? Thanks on the timing thing I will check it out but that would be how to command what your wot timing would be?

Yea that's what I was trying to do maybe I disabled and hit arrow key and it reenabled thanks for catching it. I wanted it disable from the eectuning article sorry for the confusion. You guys are great help. Let me know anything else that needs to be addressed

Thanks
Colby
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
cheese_05_70
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« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2011, 05:40:39 pm »

Guys i looked at tune and it says Z_wspksw is disabled. I aloso cant find Spark WOT advance Vs rpm function? Do you mean spark- spark and fuel lugging load vs rpm?

Here is what i did if it helps.
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16800

Thanks
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
fidstang
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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2011, 06:24:31 pm »

Nope, I wasn't asking what components you were using, but rather what changes to the hardware. Like removed egr, smog, ac, etc.......

But, I think we're past that now. As for the reading on EECtuning, slow down, one step at a time because if you try to go to fast you can corrupt you tune quickly.

The spark WOT advance vs. rpm function is in the the functions tab. But, with the Z_wspksw disabled, the hack removes all of the functions related to spark-WOT.

I think the best thing to do is just start with your base tune and modify only what has changed. Then slowly progress into the spark and fuel logic. Then start deciding which method you want to use for spark and fuel. Then after getting that far and understanding your datalogs, refine the table scaling to match your needs.
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cheese_05_70
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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2011, 06:47:37 pm »

Oh ok sorry fidistang i dont have A/c, Smog or Canister. Got egr tho. Well i have read alot on there but the only thing i used was the timing thing.

Thats basically what i was trying to do just change the injectors and components that have changed. I had to see how it worked real quick so i started it just to see what it would do it  has a nasty surge so it died and i quit. I know  I'm sorry just had to see it im like a kid at christmas.

So i should i re-enable the timing things and leave that stock and just change the maf TB and injectors? What do you mean by which method i want to use for spark and fuel?

Just by looking at the datalogs how would one know what to adjust on the table scaling? or you make small adjustments and see what it does?

Thanks
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88 4 cyl converted to 306, 9:1 compression, cleaned up Windsor sr heads 64cc chamber, nx274 cam installed on 109cl, comp 851 lifters, ultra gold roller rockers, ported typhoon intake, 75mm Tb, 30lb injectors, 80mm pro m maf, hooker shorty 1.625 headers, 2.5 h pipe into 2.5 flowmasters out the back, t5 trans, aluminum driveshaft, 8.8 3.73 gears, Subframes to be installed this weekend.
85_GT
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2011, 06:53:06 pm »

   Crank vs ect is the commanded PW and vs time is an adder. Either way ect or time accomplishes the same thing. Your way.....my way...blah... just don't say I'm wrong. I'ts just two different ways to skin the same cat.

 

   I still can't see where he asked why cranking vs. time was all 1's and how to change it..   I do see him asking if the same correction would apply to injector voltage offset. Injector voltage offset is not only size but actual brand and style specific as well.. Two different brands or styles of the same brand will have a different curve.

 



  I'll dig up a voltage offset curve for the old red top 30's tonight. If that is in fact the injector being used.
Oh, ok, I can see what you were saying in your original post.  Thought he was looking at the wrong table.  But yes, I can see using that table to do the same thing.  Never thought about using it that way.  
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
fidstang
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 07:19:28 pm »

Oh ok sorry fidistang i dont have A/c, Smog or Canister. Got egr tho. Well i have read alot on there but the only thing i used was the timing thing.

Thats basically what i was trying to do just change the injectors and components that have changed. I had to see how it worked real quick so i started it just to see what it would do it  has a nasty surge so it died and i quit. I know  I'm sorry just had to see it im like a kid at christmas.

So i should i re-enable the timing things and leave that stock and just change the maf TB and injectors? What do you mean by which method i want to use for spark and fuel?

Just by looking at the datalogs how would one know what to adjust on the table scaling? or you make small adjustments and see what it does?

Thanks

I'm saying to start with a fresh OEM tune. Change the MAF, injector settings, and disable the smog, canister settings.

Take the car out for some rides, I would force open loop and compare the datalog readings to my wideband to make sure the injector settings/MAF transfer are optimal. Then return it to enable closed loop, clear KAM's and datalog for another ride.
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bender460
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« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 07:50:19 pm »

   Here is what eec anayzer spits out for a voltage offset.

19.60   0.6333
18.00   0.6333
16.00   0.6333
14.80   0.6333
14.40   0.6333
14.00   0.6344
13.60   0.6610
13.20   0.6877
13.00   0.7175
12.80   0.7690
12.40   0.8230
12.00   0.8854
11.60   0.9073
11.20   0.9312
11.00   0.9592
10.80   1.0850
10.40   1.2083
10.00   1.3405
9.60   1.4020
9.00   1.4667
9.00   1.5383
8.80   1.7087
8.40   1.8710
8.00   2.0394
7.60   2.3700
7.20   2.7000
7.00   3.0400
6.80   3.7900
6.40   4.2900
6.00   4.6800
5.50   7.0000
5.20   7.0000
4.80   7.0000
3.20   7.0000
1.60   7.0000
0.00   7.0000

 
   I "think" those are the EV6's.

   Here is what ford says for the red tops...
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-b302.pdf
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92lx
pump gas, N.A. 347
TFS highprts, CI TLSR,
super vic,  4500 TB
MS3X EFI
Ultimate 5400rpm 8" converter C4
Full Team Z front and rear
10.90 at 124......D.A. 6500'
bender460
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« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2011, 08:06:39 pm »

  Been googling the last 1/2 hour here is what I keep coming up with for injector settings for the red tops..

Hi slope 30.23
low slope 32.82
breakpoint 2.1338  <-- Last injector tune item.. Function (Fuel - Injector Breakpoint)
 
 voltage offset

15.9375...0.4375
14.0000...0.5313
13.0000...0.6250
12.0000...0.7188
11.0000...0.8750
10.0000...1.0625
8.0000....   1.6563
6.0000....   3.2500
5.0000....   3.2500
4.0000....   3.2500
3.0000....   3.2500
0.0000....   3.2500
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92lx
pump gas, N.A. 347
TFS highprts, CI TLSR,
super vic,  4500 TB
MS3X EFI
Ultimate 5400rpm 8" converter C4
Full Team Z front and rear
10.90 at 124......D.A. 6500'
fidstang
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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2011, 08:27:52 pm »

I believe the low slope should be 36ish. breakpoint and offset looks good. Don't forget to change the Cranking PW vs. ECT function.

Your ISC settings are a bit trickier. You will need to ensure that you have your MAF transfer, injector settings and idle/tps set correctly first.
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Spend time with your family to, not just your car.

"The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher states. The great teacher inspires."-- William Author Ward
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