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Author Topic: My stab at the big head/small engine build.  (Read 45808 times)
NIKwithoutaC
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« on: May 31, 2011, 12:39:05 pm »

The engine is actually finished and in the car, and I've been driving it for a few days.  Thought I'd make sure it was actually going to work before I drew any attention to myself on this forum.  Cheesy

The car is an '86 GT (see sig) with the stock 90K mile 302 bottom end, but I sent the block and crank to the machine shop for some cleanup work while I had it out, and then I put new rings, bearings, oil pump, etc in the car while I had it out.

Here is the list of top end parts:

TEA prepped Twisted Wedge 205s.  Double springs with Ti retainers.  Milled to 61cc (9.8ish CR).
TFS R intake w/90mm TB opening, TEA port matched to the heads.
Custom Comp cam.  215/224 @ .050", ~.570" I & E lift w/1.6 rocker, 112 LSA.
70mm throttle body (it's what I had, the car will get a 90 eventually).
4" intake pipe and 97mm Abaco MAF meter.

Other stuff:

Junk BBK equal length shorty headers
"Off road" 2.5 inch x-pipe, Flowmaster 2.5 inch cat-back
255lph fuel pump, 30lb injectors
3.73 gears
Asto Performance T5, Ram HDX clutch
E-fan and a bunch of other little stuff I'm forgetting

Anyway, the clutch is still in the break in period, so I have not thrashed on it too much, but I can say this:  I can lug the engine down to 1200 RPM or so, no bucking, perfect drivability.  The engine is pulling very hard at 5500 rpm, though I have not really taken it past that yet.  I imagine it will pull strong all the way until the computer tugs on the leash and cuts fuel at whatever the factory rev limiter is.  I'll eventually have drag strip and dyno results, though it is more of a street car and less of a drag car.

The full build thread is HERE.  I know, I know, I'm a StangNet junky.  Tongue

Comments?  Questions?  Concerns?  Grin
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One of those silly big head/small engine cars.  302ci, TEA Twisted Wedge 205s, TFS R intake, 97mm MAF meter, very mild custom cam.
David Claflin
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2011, 12:43:11 pm »

Sounds similar to what I was going to do with my '88GT, only difference would be the exhaust and going to go with a vic jr intake and a 4 hole throttle body.
Do you know the rest of the specs on the cam? Who did that for you?
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1990 Red LX, 306, 80MM, ported gt40's, ported explorer upper accufab longtubes, 3" exhaust, 4.30's, 336/331
1985 LTD LX 347, 205 11R's, TFS-R, 90MMTB, MAC 1 3/4" longtubes, 4R70W, mach 1 brakes
1988 GT long term project
NIKwithoutaC
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2011, 02:41:09 pm »

Yea, I have the cam card at home.  Duration at .006" is 265/276, actual lobe lift is .355/.354.  I installed/degreed the cam "straight up".

Mike at TEA helped me spec the cam.  I kind of had an idea* of what the cam should look like, and he helped me by finalizing the actual lobes used.  It's roughly based off a Comp XE 266, but with more lift.  I don't have the part numbers in front of me, but I believe the intake lobe is one of Comp's LS lobes, and the exhaust is one of their XFI lobes.

*Disclaimer:  I do not consider nor advertise myself to be a cam expert.  I just did a lot of research, played with CamQuest, and read about a lot of other people's cars and what cams worked for them.  The cam is probably not perfect for my application, but I'm happy with how the car runs so far.  Grin
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One of those silly big head/small engine cars.  302ci, TEA Twisted Wedge 205s, TFS R intake, 97mm MAF meter, very mild custom cam.
Joel5.0
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2011, 03:35:05 pm »

XTREME ENERGY LSL Lobe #13014: 265 215 139 .355 .568
Xtreme XFI Lobe #3035: 276 224 147 .353 .565

On a 112 LSA "straight up" or ICL = LSA = 4.5 ATDC/39.5 ABDC Intake and 44 BBDC/0 BTDC exhaust.

 Wonder, Ponder .... for comparison purposes, check the example at http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2245.msg51814.html#msg51814
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ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
David Claflin
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2011, 03:40:24 pm »

Should run pretty good I'd think, especially with a good tune in it.
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1990 Red LX, 306, 80MM, ported gt40's, ported explorer upper accufab longtubes, 3" exhaust, 4.30's, 336/331
1985 LTD LX 347, 205 11R's, TFS-R, 90MMTB, MAC 1 3/4" longtubes, 4R70W, mach 1 brakes
1988 GT long term project
NIKwithoutaC
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2011, 04:14:53 pm »

XTREME ENERGY LSL Lobe #13014: 265 215 139 .355 .568
Xtreme XFI Lobe #3035: 276 224 147 .353 .565

On a 112 LSA "straight up" or ICL = LSA = 4.5 ATDC/39.5 ABDC Intake and 44 BBDC/0 BTDC exhaust.

 Wonder, Ponder .... for comparison purposes, check the example at http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2245.msg51814.html#msg51814

Haha, I think you're right on the money with those lobes, Joel.  I have the Comp catalog PDF on my computer, but I'm too lazy to look through it.  Tongue

I have actually, at some point, read those posts.  It was stuff like that that helped me pick my cam.  I had originally wanted to run 1.7 rockers and end up with .600" lift, but Mike suggested that I run 1.6s and save on spring life and to go easy on the rest of my valvetrain.  Besides, it's not like those 205s aren't moving enough wind already at .568".  Grin

Should run pretty good I'd think, especially with a good tune in it.

I'm happy with how it runs, and judging by how it's pulling at 4000rpm and beyond, I'm guessing it will hold it's own at the track.  I agree, there will probably be some tuning to get the most out of it, but right now I already blew the budget and the wife probably won't let me buy a tuner.   Cheesy  I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator sitting on the shelf, so in the mean time I'll just read plugs and get the A/F close.  Beyond that, I do have some bugs to work out, but right now I'm enjoying just driving the thing.
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One of those silly big head/small engine cars.  302ci, TEA Twisted Wedge 205s, TFS R intake, 97mm MAF meter, very mild custom cam.
jtmustang
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2011, 04:28:04 pm »

cool build... Grin

any pics of the car itself and inside ..etc..?
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NIKwithoutaC
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2011, 05:01:02 pm »

cool build... Grin

any pics of the car itself and inside ..etc..?

Thanks, man!

Yea, I've got a few shots of the car.  The body is straight and rust free, but the paint is definitely showing its age.  The interior is pretty clean, aside from a rip in the driver's seat from sliding into it with cargo shorts that had metal buttons on them, haha.

Other mods to the car include a full 5-lug swap with 2004 Cobra brakes and 17x8/17x9 Mach 1 wheels.  I've had this car since I was 17 and have done every last modification entirely myself, the car was stone stock when I bought it.  Well, I take that back, my wife helped me bleed the brakes after the 5 lug swap.  Tongue

Pics:









Thought I had more of the interior, guess not.  I'm sorry
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One of those silly big head/small engine cars.  302ci, TEA Twisted Wedge 205s, TFS R intake, 97mm MAF meter, very mild custom cam.
Joel5.0
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2011, 06:09:55 pm »

Disconnect the O2's, clear computer memory, install FPR, lock timing at what it likes after some test runs between 30° - 35° and check what fuel pressure it works best with.....  Naughty
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
David Claflin
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****
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Posts: 7907


Location: Redneck Riviera (Ft Walton Beach Florida)

« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2011, 09:06:32 pm »

Here's the link to the HC50 thread mentioned in reply from Jay, the link in there was dead.
http://hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=309642
The cam in the one DB built is significantly larger then what you have, or what I intend to use in mine.
Logged

1990 Red LX, 306, 80MM, ported gt40's, ported explorer upper accufab longtubes, 3" exhaust, 4.30's, 336/331
1985 LTD LX 347, 205 11R's, TFS-R, 90MMTB, MAC 1 3/4" longtubes, 4R70W, mach 1 brakes
1988 GT long term project
goober
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 12:51:30 am »

Here's the link to the HC50 thread mentioned in reply from Jay, the link in there was dead.
http://hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=309642
The cam in the one DB built is significantly larger then what you have, or what I intend to use in mine.

Good link! That engine was making some steam!
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NIKwithoutaC
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 07:17:17 am »

Disconnect the O2's, clear computer memory, install FPR, lock timing at what it likes after some test runs between 30° - 35° and check what fuel pressure it works best with.....  Naughty

 Ah! Prepare

Why lock timing?  Why not just play with my initial timing?

Here's the link to the HC50 thread mentioned in reply from Jay, the link in there was dead.
http://hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=309642
The cam in the one DB built is significantly larger then what you have, or what I intend to use in mine.

Yea, that cam is waaaaaaaaay bigger than what I'd run, haha.  But that 302 is baking some power!
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One of those silly big head/small engine cars.  302ci, TEA Twisted Wedge 205s, TFS R intake, 97mm MAF meter, very mild custom cam.
David Claflin
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Big Block
****
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Posts: 7907


Location: Redneck Riviera (Ft Walton Beach Florida)

« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 07:46:52 am »

Why lock timing?  Why not just play with my initial timing?
If you tune it yourself you can set initial timing apart from wide open throttle timing. If you advance timing 8 degrees to 18 initial, it is still only 34 total at WOT
Logged

1990 Red LX, 306, 80MM, ported gt40's, ported explorer upper accufab longtubes, 3" exhaust, 4.30's, 336/331
1985 LTD LX 347, 205 11R's, TFS-R, 90MMTB, MAC 1 3/4" longtubes, 4R70W, mach 1 brakes
1988 GT long term project
Joel5.0
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Miracles?.... by appointment only!


« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 08:01:54 am »

Just wanted to use Nik's engine removal/disassembly pictures to show you guys something. If you look at the pictures of the different SBF timing covers based on water pump rotation shown at http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2441.0.html ..... and compare the OEM timing cover of his '86 HO (a reverse rotation WP)..... you will see that the WP ports are aligned/oriented just like the regular rotation WP timing covers. IOW.... they are interchangeable w/out affecting water flow.



Disconnect the O2's, clear computer memory, install FPR, lock timing at what it likes after some test runs between 30° - 35° and check what fuel pressure it works best with.....  Naughty

 Ah! Prepare

Why lock timing?  Why not just play with my initial timing?

You take the stock timing advance variable out of the picture and set for what the engine benefits from mechanically, until you have access to the QH that you plan to install. It's also an old school trick that does work at the track. Test it and see for yourself.
Logged

ACRONYMS:
LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
NIKwithoutaC
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Location: Indy

« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 09:18:19 am »

If you tune it yourself you can set initial timing apart from wide open throttle timing. If you advance timing 8 degrees to 18 initial, it is still only 34 total at WOT

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting.  I was not aware of this.  I was always under the impression that by altering the base timing, you were inadvertently altering total timing.

Just wanted to use Nik's engine removal/disassembly pictures to show you guys something. If you look at the pictures of the different SBF timing covers based on water pump rotation shown at http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2441.0.html ..... and compare the OEM timing cover of his '86 HO (a reverse rotation WP)..... you will see that the WP ports are aligned/oriented just like the regular rotation WP timing covers. IOW.... they are interchangeable w/out affecting water flow.



You take the stock timing advance variable out of the picture and set for what the engine benefits from mechanically, until you have access to the QH that you plan to install. It's also an old school trick that does work at the track. Test it and see for yourself.

It looks like the 351 timing cover is the only one with different ports...  Correct?

I'll have to try that timing trick next time I'm at the track.  Unfortunately, I live in familyland suburbville, so I can't just take the car out and thrash on it on public roads without drawing a lot of attention to myself and running into a lot of slow moving traffic.  Unless, of course, I want to drive 30 minutes to get out into the country. 
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One of those silly big head/small engine cars.  302ci, TEA Twisted Wedge 205s, TFS R intake, 97mm MAF meter, very mild custom cam.
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