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Author Topic: Just when I thought I understood ?  (Read 10816 times)
Blue Oval
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« on: February 12, 2011, 11:44:30 pm »


 Well, I finally got my car back to the strip yesterday after a 5 month wait of rain cancellations etc.
 Unfortunately it all went pear shaped again as we had a shower of rain through the night and they could not stop water coming up in a crack in the track. Even though the day was fine and mild all day.
 Very frustating to say the least.
 I was lined up at the pit lane for 4 hours while they tried to dry it before it was called off.

 While I had time to kill I got talking to a guy I had met years ago at the track who runs clevelands in
 Aussie XY falcons he has had.
 He gets them running really hard deep into the 9's and I was curious to know his set up.

 Now this is where all my learning here in the last 6 months has me confused.
 He is running a 408 stroker clevo, FACTORY block, FACTORY cast iron heads, a mid size (his words) roller cam, 11.0:1 comp, revs it to 7000 rpm and his best time is 9.60 !
 He said the engine is putting out high 700's hp !

 Now this has me confused. How can those heads flow enough for that power ? How does the block hang together ?
 How does this car go that hard with a mid size roller and 11.0:1 comp ?   
He also told me he always runs smaller cams and light valve springs.  After reading here I have accepted light valve springs probably aren't a good idea.

 The car is an Aussie falcon utility (or pick up) weighs around 3500 pounds, has no wheel tubs and runs a C10 auto.

Absolutely no N2O.

Here's a video to give you an idea. Look at around 1.00 min mark of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qPxga0IA0c

I have always had clevos and only recemtly started playing with Windsors. I am very happy with my 347 and can really appreciate the windsor.
This clevo has me very puzzled.

 Anyone have any thoughts on where my conventional wisdom has gone wrong ?  Grin Huh?
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347 windsor, AFR 185,Vic Jr,Comp Cams Hyd Roller cam,780 Prosystems carb ,1 5/8" extractors, 4500 stall,4.11:1 Tru Trac. Chassis dyno 370 hp  Best 1/4 mile 11.21 sec at 122.83 mph
Youtube 1 min in..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBI75-l9CQQ
In car video ...
http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/texasbluesdownunder/?action=view&current=3rdrun21stmay2011.mp4
69 Merc
The Ricer King
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2011, 01:26:59 am »

A hydraulic or a solid roller cam?
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Robert's 1969 Mercury Montego (FordStrokers 408W, QFT 850cfm RQ-AN, Super Victor, 1" aluminum open spacer, CamMotion HR .624"/.609" 251*/256* 108* LSA, 1-3/4"x3-1/2" headers, Dynomax Ultra #17224 mufflers, C6/4R100 trans, 8"/9" 5500 converter, Broader Performance manual V/B, 9" 4.56 Detroit Truetrac, Hoosier Pro Street 31x12.5R15 on 10" rims)

The Merc started here = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,27178.0.html  Now = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,34648.0.html

Thanks to Jim "Woody" and Nicole Woods @ FordStrokers 408W, Westminster Performance Transmission (W.P.T.) transmissions, TCS Performance converters, Broader Performance valvebodies and last but not least a BIG thanks (always) to my friends here and abroad in the World!
85_GT
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2011, 02:18:35 am »

I have a link somewhere about the original design criteria for the cleveland.  It was very carefully and intentionally designed to compete in nascar against the 426 hemi's.

They succeeded, in that the lighter 351 made the same hp and rpms with a stock iron block, iron heads and cast crank.  Heads were designed around the .600 inch lift used at 7000-7200 rpm nascar speeds, resulting in the 600 hp if I recall right.  Even the stock oiling system was sufficient.

So, yeah, I can see that car being what it is.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
Blue Oval
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2011, 02:23:39 am »

I didn't ask him that Robert. I asked myself the same thing but then thought what difference does that make when it's not a big cam and he revs it to 7000  ?
So I didn't ask.
I know I must be missing a few things here but I wouldn't have thought those factory 4v cast iron heads would flow enough to make that power.
I thought the exhaust port was a limitation there. He said the intake porting is where the gains are to be had.   
There goes my conventional wisdom out the door !

In years gone by I had trouble splitting no.5 cyl in a few clevos. I wouldn't have dreamt a factory block would handle high 700s hp.
Then again most of us ran too much timing in the old days.
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347 windsor, AFR 185,Vic Jr,Comp Cams Hyd Roller cam,780 Prosystems carb ,1 5/8" extractors, 4500 stall,4.11:1 Tru Trac. Chassis dyno 370 hp  Best 1/4 mile 11.21 sec at 122.83 mph
Youtube 1 min in..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBI75-l9CQQ
In car video ...
http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/texasbluesdownunder/?action=view&current=3rdrun21stmay2011.mp4
85_GT
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2011, 02:38:53 am »

Back when I rebuilt my cleveland in my mach1 back in the early 80's,  I went for a economy cam.  I was just looking at what I got in an old old summit catalog.  It has the Crane Thriftmaster Plus cam.
200deg intake and 210 exh at .050.  It would pull to 6500 without breaking as sweat.  It ran as quick or quicker the most of the big block chevelles and a few FE mustangs.
I remember once shortly after putting in the 4.56's, which I wasn't use to shifting so quickly after taking off, we were taking off against someone and the car ran out off omph in 1st.
Quick glance of the Sun Tach and the needle was approaching 8k.  Though, oh shi..., I screwed it up.  Nah..still ran fine after that.
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85GT, Dart Windsor Jr, Crane 2030 equiv. Performer 5.0, 75mm TB, 88mm Slot, 34lbs injectors, 1 5/8" shorties, 5spd converted to 4R70W with Baumann controller, 3.25 9"
A9L running A9P bin via Quarterhorse with LC-1
Brian S
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 04:56:08 am »

It's uncommon but doable.

351/378 Cleveland Dyno 782.5 HP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zk6jO5vXHc

In Australia there's also a turbo 351C that dynoed at 1200 HP.

----------------------
And a Clevor stroker

422 CI Clevor specs ;

1970 351C Boss heads with Parker port tongues
Parker Funnelweb
9.5 SVO 4.1 bore block
4" stroke
14:1 compression
6.2 Dyer billet rods
Scat 9000 crank
1.7 Jesel shaft rockers
Titanium valves
Crower cam - 108 CL, .795 in / .725 ex
Pro Systems 1100 Dominator

Heads flowed 375 intake, 225 exhaust with MPG stingers

Dyno - 758 HP @ 7300, 614 ft/lbs @ 6000

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jayh
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 07:59:45 am »

the 4v cleveland stuff is badass.

same big heads/small cam philosophy. no reason to beat the crap out of the valve train
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425" pump gas 6.2@110
Brian S
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 10:43:47 am »

Heads were designed around the .600 inch lift used at 7000-7200 rpm nascar speeds, resulting in the 600 hp if I recall right.

This is why I don't recommend baby cams. Not that they perform badly, it's just that they don't have enough lift to take full advantage of the big flowing ports. Short duration cams also limit the compression ratio.

Compare these two builds...they both ran 4V heads but only one had a cam that allowed the heads to work as they were designed.

A Cleveland Powerhouse (not)
http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/mump_0509_cleveland_stroker_kit_install/index.html
408C 414HP@5500, 446TQ@4500
HFT 212deg@.050, .484 lift
1.01HP per ci

Kicking it Old School
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,8137.0.html
383C 432HP@5700, 439TQ@4000
HR 228/232deg@.050 .597/.609 lift
1.13HP per ci

And after professional porting
486HP@5900, 463@4800
1.29HP per ci

Tunnel Ram 2x4
523HP@6200, 476@4800
1.37HP per ci

Imagine that...up to 109+HP and 30+TQ with 25 fewer cubic inches.
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Blue Oval
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 04:35:38 pm »

It's uncommon but doable.

351/378 Cleveland Dyno 782.5 HP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zk6jO5vXHc

In Australia there's also a turbo 351C that dynoed at 1200 HP.

----------------------
And a Clevor stroker

422 CI Clevor specs ;

1970 351C Boss heads with Parker port tongues
Parker Funnelweb
9.5 SVO 4.1 bore block
4" stroke
14:1 compression
6.2 Dyer billet rods
Scat 9000 crank
1.7 Jesel shaft rockers
Titanium valves
Crower cam - 108 CL, .795 in / .725 ex
Pro Systems 1100 Dominator

Heads flowed 375 intake, 225 exhaust with MPG stingers

Dyno - 758 HP @ 7300, 614 ft/lbs @ 6000



That's two healthy clevos you've listed there Brian. I have never doubted the potential of the clevo. The youtube example is not a like comparison though. It has much better junk.

1972 4 bolt Cleveland block with ARP stud kit.

4340 Forged Steel Crank 3.75 stroke Knife Edged and Nitrided

6.00 Carillo Rods

Ross Forged Gas Ported Pistons 4.005 Bore 13.2 :1 Comp Ratio

Crane Solid Roller Cam (270, 275 @ .050) .769 Intake Lift, .788 Exhaust Lift , 112 Lobe Separation

Roller Cam Bearings 2.051 Cam Journels

C3 Nascar Heads flow 382 cfm @ .750 lift intake, 305 cfm @ .750 lift exhaust, 2.12" Titanium Intake, 1.6" Titanium Exhaust
ggeimer 5 months ago
ggeimer 5 months ago
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#

7/16" Push Rods

Jessel Y2K 2.1 Rocker Ratio

Sheet metal Valve Covers with internal spring oilers

Ported Edelbrock 2938 Intake

1050 Demon Carb.

Nascar Water Pump

5 Stage Dry Sump with Stainless Steel Dry Sump Pan

2-1/8" to 2-1/4" SS step headers

Mallory dual pickup Distributor

And the second one is 14:1 comp and a huge cam. Very impressive flow numbers from the heads though !


I still can't work out how he has this hp with factory heads, "mid size" cam and 11:1 comp ??

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347 windsor, AFR 185,Vic Jr,Comp Cams Hyd Roller cam,780 Prosystems carb ,1 5/8" extractors, 4500 stall,4.11:1 Tru Trac. Chassis dyno 370 hp  Best 1/4 mile 11.21 sec at 122.83 mph
Youtube 1 min in..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBI75-l9CQQ
In car video ...
http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/texasbluesdownunder/?action=view&current=3rdrun21stmay2011.mp4
Brian S
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 09:20:16 pm »

I still can't work out how he has this hp with factory heads, "mid size" cam and 11:1 comp ??

It's hard to know what someone means by a mid size cam but the block is strong (I would suspect at least a half fill of hard block) and the heads can flow enough to get over 750HP. Sometimes people downplay their combo to make it sound that much more impressive.
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69 Merc
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 09:22:31 pm »

Is a mid-size cam like between .750" and .875" of lift?    Naughty
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Robert's 1969 Mercury Montego (FordStrokers 408W, QFT 850cfm RQ-AN, Super Victor, 1" aluminum open spacer, CamMotion HR .624"/.609" 251*/256* 108* LSA, 1-3/4"x3-1/2" headers, Dynomax Ultra #17224 mufflers, C6/4R100 trans, 8"/9" 5500 converter, Broader Performance manual V/B, 9" 4.56 Detroit Truetrac, Hoosier Pro Street 31x12.5R15 on 10" rims)

The Merc started here = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,27178.0.html  Now = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,34648.0.html

Thanks to Jim "Woody" and Nicole Woods @ FordStrokers 408W, Westminster Performance Transmission (W.P.T.) transmissions, TCS Performance converters, Broader Performance valvebodies and last but not least a BIG thanks (always) to my friends here and abroad in the World!
gbbmustang
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2011, 07:39:36 am »

The 4V Cleveland iron head has a 240 cc intake runner and goes 280 cfm untouched.  Some talented head porters are getting 330 to 350 out of them.  The 408 on a 9.2 deck will more than likely have a 6 inch rod.  With that stroke and a short rod it will have more than average piston speed to really haul on the intake port.  It will make the combo into a beast with the correct porting and a somewhat gentle cam on the valve train.  In alot of cases, you can make decent HP with a milder cam because you are not fighting ridiculous spring pressures that tend to rob HP.  Big spring pressures and big aggressive cams are for the big boys that can afford to throw away the springs after wearing them out in one weekend of drag racing.
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Blue Oval
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2011, 09:26:18 am »

The 4V Cleveland iron head has a 240 cc intake runner and goes 280 cfm untouched.  Some talented head porters are getting 330 to 350 out of them.  The 408 on a 9.2 deck will more than likely have a 6 inch rod.  With that stroke and a short rod it will have more than average piston speed to really haul on the intake port.  It will make the combo into a beast with the correct porting and a somewhat gentle cam on the valve train.  In alot of cases, you can make decent HP with a milder cam because you are not fighting ridiculous spring pressures that tend to rob HP.  Big spring pressures and big aggressive cams are for the big boys that can afford to throw away the springs after wearing them out in one weekend of drag racing.

Thanks for putting things into perspective. Wow  ! They are that big !
No wonder the Clevo is still so popular downunder.
It seems it was tailor made to become the killer stroker engine.
It's interesting how modern thinking has changed what is required to make hp.
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347 windsor, AFR 185,Vic Jr,Comp Cams Hyd Roller cam,780 Prosystems carb ,1 5/8" extractors, 4500 stall,4.11:1 Tru Trac. Chassis dyno 370 hp  Best 1/4 mile 11.21 sec at 122.83 mph
Youtube 1 min in..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBI75-l9CQQ
In car video ...
http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/texasbluesdownunder/?action=view&current=3rdrun21stmay2011.mp4
417strokers
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 04:17:16 pm »

     Ford was never dissapointed in the Clevelands abuilaty to make power! The reason the 335 series was droped was it was not compatable with the emissions direction. Nascar ban the Big port heads so the brand X engines wouldn't be left behind . This gave the engine builders the idea that a small port is better. If the time was spent on the 4v  Cleveland head that has been spent on the small port Windsor or Chevy heads there would be no contest as to who could make the most power. Remember Arlen Fadly's Super stock mag project car B/Super modified  1970 maverick  Ran high 9.00 ets with a stock headed boss 302.
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