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Author Topic: detonation prevention open chamber head???  (Read 32385 times)
Brian S
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2011, 06:57:40 pm »

It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding about what's going on. Here's a couple links about compression that explain a lot better than I can.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0311em_power_squeeze/index.html
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0606em_understanding_compression_ratio/index.html
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/

Engine temperature has an effect on detonation. These links are about using the correct type of thermostat for the 351C/400 engines.
Bypass vs Non-bypass Types
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/thermostat.htm
33-180 Robertshaw
http://flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=112

.....and here's some info about ignition advance curves and tuning.
http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/03/timing/

With extreme changes in altitude you may benefit from a dash mounted timing control device similar to this. http://www.jegs.com/i/MSD/121/8680/10002/-1


Something else to consider is the temperature affecting starting and warming of the engine. The carb will to be somewhat insulated because of the spacers and air gap manifold design. A cool carb is great for the summer but in the winter months without the heat riser passage normally under the carb, it could lead to some drivability issues in very cold weather.
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2011, 10:48:44 am »

 thanks bird man. kinda what I had in mind. it won't be perfect but better than doing nothing. old school machineing kinda sucks sometimes. Running a ARP stud and not much play with these studs to move around and cheat. Had the guides out and was moving head around some and helped a little and thats probably all I'm gonna get. cool picture.
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BirdMan
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2011, 11:02:35 am »

You could mock up without the dowel pins in place but with studs in.  Slightly clamp head down using 3 or 4 studs.  Center chambers as best you can.  Clamp tight.  Mark what direction you need to go at headbolt holes.  Set on bridgeport mill (spacing up off of bed of mill) and using 1/2" end mill bore each headbolt hole all the way through the head the measurement/distance needed to center chambers on block.  Before removing head counterbore to 5/8" or 11/16" down approximately 5/16 to 3/8" each hole.  Now machine some shouldered washers to insert into holes (like the ones used for aluminum heads) and they will be used to center the chamber to bore!!  You will not be using the stock dowels anymore.  You don't even make offset dowels.
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2011, 11:55:13 am »

Hey brian that is some excellent info. I've read and kept some of those articles from old magazines. Nice to stroll back and keep my mind fresh. Never read the street rod article before on the northstar engine, great read. I see where your going on the compression with my applicaiton. Thanks for the info and i know I'm not the only guy out their in a similar situation. the ignition and timing control from Msd I already have. I have this on my 472 big block 4wd and works great once you find you sweet spot for elevation changes. Acts a little different summer/winter but just one of those tuning things and octane sensitive. My biggest problem is getting good fuel. sometimes my 91 will ping in my 472 BBF and sometimes it won't. Might run acouple months and one day fuel up and truck runs like crap. So I have to say quality control with the fuel is another factor also. This has got me thinking and child proofing my engine a little more. Especially in a trailor hauling vehicle situation. will get back with you on this.
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2011, 12:12:11 pm »

On the carb or fuel injection? I'm looking at doing a quick fuel 780 vac secondary with annular booster. really like annular booste design for low end torque. Especially in a lower rpm situation. people tell me to run a smaller carb for better signal is ok but with big elevation changes small carbs suck. Like trying to breath through a straw. Run a bigger carb and try and inhance the signal the best i can. Just did a 650 annular on a 302 rv cam for the mountains with 1:1 linkage and the lowend torque is awesome compared to a typical edlebrock 600 or 650. really like the quickfuel SS carbs bang for buck. very tunable carbs. The 302 I did never turns over 4500rpms and just works great when pullin the 7 to 10 degree grades heading up secondary roads near us. Did a 830cfm annual on my 472. ran many different carb over the years and these are the best performers so far. Did a dodge with 750 downleg and cold tell a difference at low end and once at 2000 or better seem to come on better where the annulars just seem to work from 1000rpms on up. eventually will probably run a fuel injection but not in the budget for this engine yet. maybe next year. I see alot of people are checkin in and this read is a lot about the basics in engine building. sometimes a person buys a part and don't understand exactly why some parts just work better than some and forget or just don't know why something works. Its helping me and hopefully helping somebody else. adios amigo. keeping old iron alive one engine at a time!
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2011, 10:04:30 am »

heads are about finished last week and springs/retainers on the way. my little science project will be soon completed. gathering of the parts. machine work pretty much done.
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2011, 10:06:25 am »

 still have some port matching to do but won't be able to do until my head cutter is done. just a matter of time. 4v heads and spacer plates and air gap intake. little epoxy work and she'll be a good strond midrange motor.
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Brian S
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« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2011, 08:25:18 am »

Edelbrock doesn't recommend port matching the air gap manifold when they are used on 4V heads.
I forgot to ask...do you have the part #s for the .051 head gaskets and the Price Motorsport adapters. I couldn't find these for your application. 
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 12:49:33 pm »

 detonation prevention? One of the things I like to do for helping prevention is 1:1 carbs for low end torque. You have to learn how to be smoother on throttle than normal. Your getting more air flow in the beginning to help cool the combustion chamber down. It will eventually heat up in the end. But I do know when I set these carbs up for my people this is one of the things they notice is engine temp does come down expecially the big block chevy guys. Usually I run a bigger carb if possible and just tune it. Just did a quick fuel 650cfm annular on a 302 bronco rv cam and really nothing tricky for engine but nice little carb. Setting them up like a pullin truck smooth steady throttle and trying to keep traction at all time. Been working my 400 CJ and got some photos and these are before and having my guy from cfm lloyd do his majic with my application.
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417strokers
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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2011, 11:40:55 pm »

  The main reason the 400-351m engines have a detination problem is because the piston stops .070 " down in the bore. Tim Meyer makes a proper piston to cure this i thought it was the heads until I desided to build one for high performance use I found the piston to be .078 below the deck ,the machinest said every one he took apart was this way.
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2011, 12:28:29 am »

 yes this is true. I'm building this engine with some modern parts and some excellent help from MpGheads and tim meyer. Get the piston out of the hole is definetly the first problem. The 400's are under carb'd from factory and need some air which helps keep cylinder temps down also
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2011, 07:44:13 pm »

hey brian just reading back through this info. On the elevation and cheating compression your saying about 5% gain. Some people not a big deal. But in my applicaiton at 4000'normal thats a ballpark 24% loss in power. If guestimating a 6% per thousand elev' with a carb. Fuel injection probably around 3 to 4% loss.  If I go 7000' thats a 42% loss. I can tell you I know this feeling sucks when your truck starts getting soggy feeling is the word I use. Also I make sure my carbs have virtually no restirction and this means big carbs. did a 302 with 650 quick fuel annular, my customer loves this carb. It pulls hard down low and just doesn't quit. Couldn't believe the difference and noticed the engine just ran cooler with the extra air getting to engine. cooler intake charge means detonation prevention. catch you later and thanks for all the tech stuff and I pretty much gone through everything we have gone over. heads in head shop to get flowed and evened out and intake to get flowed and matched up, 351 cleveland air gap, port plates.
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wyoming4x4
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« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2011, 01:35:22 am »

engine is pretty much together waiting on oil pan. guys thanks for the input and will be checking in soon with some photos.


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Cold Aussie
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« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2012, 12:30:26 am »

Wyoming
did you ever get this running?

Stephen
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