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| | |-+ Oil Pressure or Oil Flow - which is more important?
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Author Topic: Oil Pressure or Oil Flow - which is more important?  (Read 6220 times)
69 Merc
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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2010, 01:16:36 pm »

I don't believe they are, but ford has done stranger things....

OK.

I also would DIG an engine oiling system diagram.   Thanx!
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Robert's 1969 Mercury Montego (FordStrokers 408W, QFT 850cfm RQ-AN, Super Victor, 2" aluminum open spacer, CamMotion HR .624/.609 251/256 108, Broader Performance RmV/B under a C6/4R100 behind a 8"/9" billet 5500 stall, 9" 4.56 Detroit Truetrac, M/T ET radial streets 315/60-15 on 10" rims)

The Merc started here = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,27178.0.html

Irwindale Speedway 1/8 mile (1st time at a track!) = 7.647 @ 90.78mph with a crappy 1.878 sixty foot (3850# race weight)

Present day Merc = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,34648.0.html


Except that engine building (properly) is a labor intensive industry.  Who do you think does all the measuring and machining?  Little engine shop fairies?  Not to mention assembly, mock up and parts fitting.

At Woody's level you are not just paying for his labor but for his skill set as well.

Thanks FordStrokers 408W, Westminster Performance Transmission (W.P.T.) transmissions, TCS Performance converters, Broader Performance valvebodies and last but not least a BIG thanks (always) to my friends here and abroad in the World!
juiced coupe
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2010, 01:19:38 pm »

I don't believe they are, but ford has done stranger things....

OK.

If I'm not mistaken, Clevlands were different.
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Just a 12 second car with a 11 second engine.....that runs 10s
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor
liljoe07
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2010, 01:23:22 pm »

I have searched a good bit, but never could find a diagram of how the oil travels through the block.
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89 Coupe:
302- Canfield 195's, Jay Allen Cam, Holley Systemax II, Comp Cams 1.6's,75mm TB & MAF, 24lb Inj, 4.56's, 3" Exhaust, 3" Spintechs, QuarterHorse, BE/EA

Well since you friggin disagree with every damn suggestion, just rebuild the piece of shit.
gtvert90
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2010, 01:43:15 pm »

Wasn't there a Windsor diagram on here? Or was that coolant?
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Phil.
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2010, 02:38:43 pm »

Found it:


Scroll down, top pic is wrong.

http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,4912.0.html
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Just a 12 second car with a 11 second engine.....that runs 10s
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,20009.0.html

Quote from: Monte Smith
Bottom line, if it was the hot ticket, the fast guys would do it.............they don't

You might need some Titanium rods and a flow bench!  LMAO on floor
Jeff351w
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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2010, 03:26:00 pm »

Ok, I think I understand this a little better.  The main oil passage feeds the main bearings with the cam bearings directly fed off the mains.  The flow continues down the line where the lifter galley is fed.  If the feed hole for the cam is opened in the main bearings, both the mains and lifter galley (and therefore valvetrain) will receive less flow.

I did spend some time examining my block, but I'm having difficulty finding where the main passage extends to the lifter galley.  I'll keep looking, the diagram helps.  Thanks!
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Jeff351w
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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2010, 03:48:54 pm »

Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between Ford's oiling system and one of the aftermarket block's "priority main" oiling system?
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BirdMan
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2010, 05:55:31 am »

It is the same as my 412 c.i. Dart IE 9.5 'Sportsman' block and the front/rear mains are two bolt.
The oil flows from filter across to vertical galley which meets outer/lower left oil galley which feeds the main bearings/cam bearings, then continues back to rear vertical galley which first feeds passenger side lifter galley then continueing on up to teepee w/plug and down the drivers side vertical oil galley to drivers side lifter galley.  Lifters only oil from back of block forward.  The two upper small plugs are the ends of lifter galleys.

I did several 'un'normal modifications to the blocks oiling system trying to make sure 'oil flow' was adequate.  Son says hot running pressure is 50/55 lbs.  1200 rpm idle dips down to 40? I believe.

I have yet to disassemble this engine as it is still running and don't know if any of my modifications helped or hurt anything!!!!!

I use round carbide cutters for the shaping and 120 grit epoxy glued emery spiral rolls to polish.
I used a Melling Select HV oil pump, disassembled it completely, deburred/smoothed all corners even pump rotors.  Used a wornout flap wheel of the size needed to get it down the oil feed hole to block surface, it shined up real nice as it took off all casting irregularities.  Relief valve moves freely too after deburring/polishing the relief valve/piston.
1.  Oil pump to block is port matched and gasket is modified to match that if needed.
2.  Oil hole in block is radiused on inner corner going to filter and exit hole is laid back and polished at filter pad/mount.
3.  Oil galley from filter pad/mount to cross galley (where oil pressure sender mounts) is radiused using a long 6" carbide ball cutter.  NOTE:  on my block the factory drilling stopped a little short and only a half diameter hole was left where it intersects in block (this happened on an SVO block also).  Use a bright flashlight shining in one hole and you looking in the other hole to see it.
4.  Front main bearing hole was drilled and tapped for a plug/reducer drilled to 5/16" diameter like the other four main feed holes.
5.  Front cam bearing oil feed hole above cross oil galley was restricted with a .105 hole because it also oils the camshaft thrust and dist. lower shaft, the other four were restricted to .060 like I have done on 351C's.
6.  I also plugged the other hole just above front main bearing that goes to 'main priority' galley.  This was done to make all five main bearings have the same size oil supply holes at the same location on bearings.
7.  I radiused inner corner of #6 hole/galley where it intersects the full length of block mains oil galley just inside of surface plug.  I did the same at rear of block where the vertical (for lifter oiling) angled galley joins it.
8. I also installed a used front and rear cam bearing to check for lifter groove/waist location to oil galley on both sides and both ends of block.
9.  I sized lifter bores to actual lifters being used for .002 clearance and deburred the bottom of lifter bores as they are really sharp and has scored my lifters in the past.


* Block Oil Pump Galley.JPG (76.18 KB, 640x480 - viewed 77 times.)

* Oil Filter Boss.JPG (74.1 KB, 640x480 - viewed 86 times.)

* Front 2 mains.jpg (80.36 KB, 640x480 - viewed 98 times.)

* Front 2 Mains plugs in.jpg (75.3 KB, 640x480 - viewed 90 times.)

* Oil Pump 1.JPG (47.35 KB, 640x480 - viewed 78 times.)

* Oil Pump 2.JPG (58.02 KB, 640x480 - viewed 84 times.)

* Orifice Set Screws.jpg (25.47 KB, 320x240 - viewed 68 times.)

* 412 rear valley spacer 1.jpg (68.61 KB, 640x480 - viewed 91 times.)
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Son's 412W Build Information;
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,19018.0.html
Son's '64 Falcon Performance Information;
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,25183.0.html
BirdMan
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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2010, 06:15:03 am »

What I also did was groove the block underneath the main bearings and drilled a hole the width of groove in bearing 1" from end of bearing to preoil bearing for more oil (volume) and starting to get the oil flowing sooner and maybe more getting to rod bearings sooner and/or more volume??


* Bottom b4 oil grooves.JPG (72.93 KB, 640x480 - viewed 141 times.)

* Bottom 1.JPG (88.1 KB, 640x480 - viewed 131 times.)
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http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,19018.0.html
Son's '64 Falcon Performance Information;
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,25183.0.html
David Claflin
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« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2010, 09:23:14 pm »

So by increasing the flow would it be beneficial to have a high pressure pump over a standard pump or high volume?
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1990 Red LX, 306, 75MM, ported gt40's, Holley SMII, accufab longtubes, 3" exhaust, 4.10's
1985 LTD LX 302, ported TW's, XE-264 cam, ported Holley SMII, 75MM-R TB, accufab 1 3/4" longtubes, 4R70W, mach 1 brakes
1988 GT long term project
BirdMan
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« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2010, 02:08:40 am »

On my 412 (4.125x3.850) Eagle cross drilled forged crank with .003 clearance on both rods and mains.  Vacuum pump 6" at idle and 10" about 1500 rpm and above.  50-55 warm oil pressure above 1500 rpm.  Normal max rpms at this time is 7000 but went to 7500 on one run.

The crank used to be crossdrilled but I plugged all of them and the rods only get oil from one main journal hole each.  Radiused the passages at the main journal going out/up to rod journal.

I use a High Volume oil pump for volume of flow which for me increases the oil pressure over a standard volume pump and increased bearing clearances.  You also need additional oil pan volume to keep up with quantity being used, the higher rpm's the larger the oil pan needs to be if wet sump engine.

On a street 302 with OEM/normal clearances a standard oil pump can be adequate.
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http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,19018.0.html
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http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,25183.0.html
BirdMan
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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2010, 07:08:00 am »

The only thing that needs to be done to most SBF's is what I do in pictures #1, 2, 5 and 6 and all of my engines get this done.

What I did on the 412 is certainly overkill but I heard horror stories about oiling on a crossdrilled crank at upper rpms.  I plan on spinning it to 8000 or so later on, but for now 7000 shift points gets us fast enough (bottom 10's) but not too fast (9's).
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Son's 412W Build Information;
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,19018.0.html
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http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,25183.0.html
David Claflin
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« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2010, 08:17:44 pm »

I take it the flow to your valvetrain is still quite good?

It is very good. If you follow the oil path, you will notice that opening this passage will increase flow to the entire engine.

I couldn't remember where I seen this little trick (years ago), but stumbled on this in the tech section. Third pic down.

http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,10008.0.html
Just to clarify, as I'll be working on my block starting this week or weekend. All of the main bearing holes are opened up along with the bearing themselves so that they match the bearing saddle holes?
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1990 Red LX, 306, 75MM, ported gt40's, Holley SMII, accufab longtubes, 3" exhaust, 4.10's
1985 LTD LX 302, ported TW's, XE-264 cam, ported Holley SMII, 75MM-R TB, accufab 1 3/4" longtubes, 4R70W, mach 1 brakes
1988 GT long term project
Fordota
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« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2010, 01:26:17 pm »

My 418 from woody runs at 750 rpm and 15psi hot idle. Made me pretty nervous because its not what you normally see, but the flow vs pressure (restriction) theory makes perfect sense to me. Once I unscrewed my large oil fill cap and took a peek with a flashlight I could see TONS of oil everywhere!  Grin
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69 Merc
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« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2010, 01:37:49 pm »

My 418 from woody runs at 750 rpm and 15psi hot idle. Made me pretty nervous because its not what you normally see, but the flow vs pressure (restriction) theory makes perfect sense to me. Once I unscrewed my large oil fill cap and took a peek with a flashlight I could see TONS of oil everywhere!  Grin


With what weight oil?

Synthetic or not?
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Robert's 1969 Mercury Montego (FordStrokers 408W, QFT 850cfm RQ-AN, Super Victor, 2" aluminum open spacer, CamMotion HR .624/.609 251/256 108, Broader Performance RmV/B under a C6/4R100 behind a 8"/9" billet 5500 stall, 9" 4.56 Detroit Truetrac, M/T ET radial streets 315/60-15 on 10" rims)

The Merc started here = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,27178.0.html

Irwindale Speedway 1/8 mile (1st time at a track!) = 7.647 @ 90.78mph with a crappy 1.878 sixty foot (3850# race weight)

Present day Merc = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,34648.0.html


Except that engine building (properly) is a labor intensive industry.  Who do you think does all the measuring and machining?  Little engine shop fairies?  Not to mention assembly, mock up and parts fitting.

At Woody's level you are not just paying for his labor but for his skill set as well.

Thanks FordStrokers 408W, Westminster Performance Transmission (W.P.T.) transmissions, TCS Performance converters, Broader Performance valvebodies and last but not least a BIG thanks (always) to my friends here and abroad in the World!
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