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Author Topic: which heads?? trick flow or afr????  (Read 9042 times)
Sonicaceman
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« on: May 13, 2009, 01:37:30 am »

i'm debating which heads to go with next year if i do a new build on my 347 stroker.  right now i have windsor roush 200 heads that work good but just aren't putting the power down i would like.  i've put some posts on here about this already.  i just don't think it's worth the money to port the heads and possibly find out i wasted my money.  i would only put a stage one from panhandle into these minimum if i do it and i heard with a little work the heads i have are pretty decent.  either or, what would be better the trick flow fast as cast 190 cc or the afr 185's.  i'm looking for about 325-350 rwhp.  now i'm running about 250 rwhp.  i'm obviously going with a new cam and i plan on changing my gt-40 intake to a trick flow track heat.  i haven't heard much about the fast as cast, they are new so it scares me, and my local machine shop guy isn't too hot about trick flow because he had some bad experiences with them back a little while ago.  from all that i read and see, and specifically saw on a horsepower tv ford 347 buildup with wyotech students the afr heads on the one combo beat out the ported trick flow high port combo.  both teams had the same carb, and shortblock.  i just want to spend wisely if do spend 1500 dollars.  for anyone about to ask, this is what i have in my car.


24lb. injectors, probably going to need 30's i know
70mm tb
190 fuel pump
mac long tube 1 5/8" headers and full 2.5" exhaust with catted high flow h-pipe
fenderwell cai
canton t-style oil pan, windage tray installed
sct custom chip for the dyno tuning
76mm maf by c&l
3.73 gears, and superduty t-5 with the 2.95 1st gear ratio
gt-40 intake, and roush 200cc iron heads of course
msd 6a ignition, ford racing plugs, and high perf. coil, new ngk plugs
a/c delete, still running the smog pump going to remove if i do the project though
old anderson n-3 cam now, it works okay but it was made over 10 years ago

there it is, TRICK FlOWS or AFR'S for what i have, whose running them, how do they work, looking for input here. 
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Red5.0
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 01:47:08 am »

Trick Flow hands down. Better valve placement, better valve angle, and dont let the volume fool you just because the trick flow is only rated at 190. They have a shorter intake runner than the AFR. I cant remember exactly what Jay told me when we were discussing the TFS heads vs. AFR but I think he said the TFS heads had the same average cross section as the AFR205's

In short the TFS is a better designed platform to make power and will give you more room to grow in the future.
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Sonicaceman
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2009, 02:10:15 am »

thanks for the info.  i'm not really looking for room to grow because this will be the third time i'm taking the motor out and i would like it to be the last for a while.  i want to build something that runs hard, is street friendly, has some good hp and will be reliable.  having the option for room to grow is always good because i know how us mustang guys are, we are never done and when i'm older i might think oh i have money now lets do some more work to the stang.  okay, thanks, i look forward to everyone elses input too.  the fast as cast are a 190cc intake but the thing that makes me iffy is the 64cc chamber.  why didn't they make a 61cc or a 58cc for better compression.  i have a a 64cc chamber with my roush 200 heads.  i know the trick flow has the offset intake and exhaust valves, and the design is pretty much proven in the  170cc tw heads, but how much different would these be on my setup with the same chamber size only they are aluminum?? 
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2009, 03:13:27 am »

The 64cc chamber is just the starting point.
You simply remove material from the deck face till you have the desired cc you require,any good engine builder can take care of it.
Another good option is a set of 195 Canfields with a custom cam as a package from http://www.camshaftinnovations.com/
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2009, 07:10:01 am »

Two items that I see as important.......

i'm looking for about 325-350 rwhp.  now i'm running about 250 rwhp. 

i want to build something that runs hard, is street friendly, has some good hp and will be reliable.  

Here is an example case using the TW 170's on a 302 and the 306 RWHP 311 RWTQ results on a Mustang Dyno = http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,15152.0.html

Even with your concern regarding the CC volume and CR, you can either mill them down to reduce it to 58cc, or allow CI to design the camshaft events that will surpass your power expectations while ensuring a 100% streetable setup with the TFS 190cc "fast as cast" heads, which is the best alternative for your expectations between the two options you are pondering.

Just to provide you with another case, the following dyno results are from a 331....

Before:


After:



* Chances50 HCI 331_before.jpg (56.27 KB, 602x826 - viewed 4205 times.)

* Chances50 HCI 331.jpg (81.46 KB, 802x617 - viewed 4188 times.)
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If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
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mwood
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2009, 07:35:58 am »

Trick Flow hands down. Better valve placement, better valve angle, and don't let the volume fool you just because the trick flow is only rated at 190. They have a shorter intake runner than the AFR. I cant remember exactly what Jay told me when we were discussing the TFS heads vs. AFR but I think he said the TFS heads had the same average cross section as the AFR205's

In short the TFS is a better designed platform to make power and will give you more room to grow in the future.

I really encourage you to pay attention to what red said.  He's hitting the nail on the head.  Don't let the 190 and the 185 fool you.  The AFR185 has a similar average cross section to a TW170 or canfield 195.  The 190 is a bigger head.  The thing that makes the tw or canfield better is valve placement and angle.  As already stated.  This is spoke about all over this site.  What I would do is slow down on the decision making for the moment and read as much here on sbf as possible.  Really look for the information.  It's all over here.

 Welcome
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Sonicaceman
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2009, 12:32:46 am »

thanks again, i've been reading up as much as i can on all the heads, especially the new trick flow fast as cast heads.  i have seen some threads on here specifically about those heads, and alot of people really like the tw 170 heads.  i just think the 170's are too small for my stroker.  i do have a 347, but i'm not looking to go crazy here.  325-350 at the wheels is about where i want to be.  i am taking my time on this next one so it's going to get done right.  i plan on doing extensive research before i buy anything.  i ideally would not like to change my whole setup but it seems if i want my goal i might have to.  i would like to retain my gt-40 intake, but if it's going to cost me $300 or so to port it i might as well get the cnc'd trick flow track heat, right??? well take in mind this is a street car so lower rpm's is where i want to be ie 1500-6000 which i know the trick flow fits that bill, but the torque the gt-40 gives me down low with my current setup is real fun for the street.  the cam i'm sure will have a lot to do with my rpm range, but the way it's utilized will come from a good intake and some good matched heads.  i'm thinking the "fast as cast" heads with the trick flow intake would work good not only because they are the same brand but because the intake on the heads and manifold should match up perfect and i won't have to gasket match (yay for cnc products).  let me know if i'm wrong on this.  my other option is to keep my heads but port them mildly with a bowl blend and some cleaning up from panhandle (email response said about $600 for stg 1 that would get me 260 intake at .500 and 190 exh at .500), then port the gt-40 for about $300 and get a off the shelf comp cam, all for less than the trick flow heads.  i'm guessing that would get me where i want also.  my last option i'm considering would be getting the trick flow intake, the afr 185 heads and a good comp cams shelf cam.  let me know what you think of these ideas. 
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Joel5.0
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2009, 11:14:09 am »

thanks again, i've been reading up as much as i can on all the heads, especially the new trick flow fast as cast heads.  i have seen some threads on here specifically about those heads, and alot of people really like the tw 170 heads.  i just think the 170's are too small for my stroker.  i do have a 347, but i'm not looking to go crazy here.  325-350 at the wheels is about where i want to be.  i am taking my time on this next one so it's going to get done right.  i plan on doing extensive research before i buy anything.  i ideally would not like to change my whole setup but it seems if i want my goal i might have to.  i would like to retain my gt-40 intake, but if it's going to cost me $300 or so to port it i might as well get the cnc'd trick flow track heat, right??? well take in mind this is a street car so lower rpm's is where i want to be ie 1500-6000 which i know the trick flow fits that bill, but the torque the gt-40 gives me down low with my current setup is real fun for the street.  the cam i'm sure will have a lot to do with my rpm range, but the way it's utilized will come from a good intake and some good matched heads.  i'm thinking the "fast as cast" heads with the trick flow intake would work good not only because they are the same brand but because the intake on the heads and manifold should match up perfect and i won't have to gasket match (yay for cnc products).  let me know if i'm wrong on this.  my other option is to keep my heads but port them mildly with a bowl blend and some cleaning up from panhandle (email response said about $600 for stg 1 that would get me 260 intake at .500 and 190 exh at .500), then port the gt-40 for about $300 and get a off the shelf comp cam, all for less than the trick flow heads.  i'm guessing that would get me where i want also.  my last option i'm considering would be getting the trick flow intake, the afr 185 heads and a good comp cams shelf cam.  let me know what you think of these ideas. 

Again.... if you have a concern regarding the TW 170's being small for your 347..... the same concern would also apply to the AFR 185's..... they both have a similar average cross sectional area size. Don't focus on the "cc" spec of any cylinder head option, there's more to it.

You could also get the easiest, less expensive, less risky alternative to meet (and surpass) your goals regarding power on the street, ensure 100% driveability and efficiency......... a matched combo of TFS TW 190 "FAC" heads + custom cam will work great.... no guessing, no "maybe's", no "what if's".... just results. If you really want to ensure street torque by restricting your 347...... YCYDYP  ... LUK how it goes.
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LUK  LMK  JIC  BTSTDTRT  YCYDYP  NFI-YTM  SPOBI, and the classic... DILLIGAS

'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads   Ford Smilie 2


Quote from: Joel5.0
The right to be stupid is inalienable for sure however, there is no such thing as a right to impose stupidity onto others
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open.  (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it. (Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand - Cardinal de Retz
Jay Allen
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2009, 12:43:36 pm »

Port volume is MEANINGLESS w/o port length.

If you simply focus on volume, you'll never understand the entire story.

+/- Numbers.

TFS TW is 4.75" long
TFS High Port Design (includes Canfield & FMS Z-304) is 5.25" long.
Everything else is just, well, everything else and it is 5.00" long.

Volume  = L x W x H

If you change the length by 5.3%, that will go directly to volume.

170cc x 5.3% = 179.01cc
185cc x 5.3% (less) = 175.2cc

Just an FYI.
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Jay Allen
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Sonicaceman
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2009, 01:05:03 am »

i'm an amatuer here so all the info. on port length, avg. cross section and all the very technical jargon means about as much as chinese writing to me.  i do know that there is more to a cylinder head than just the chamber size, the exhaust size and the intake size in cc's.  do i knowa little how cylinder heads work?  i do have a concept of it but i don't know the science of them, that is why there are professionals and companies like afr, trick flow, canfield, rhs, brodix, and many others that are supposed to take out my need for the science in the equation.  the problem is you hear so much about x head and y intake and it's really hard to tell for sure what really works unless you have the tons of money to buy them and actually test them or you have the years of experience using most of them or you really know the science of them too.  i have neither of these, i'm the avg. consumer that reads the mustang magazines, talks to local gear heads, reads threads on the internet forums and tries to make a educated decision based off of what i hear and what might or should make sense.  i have one person say trick flow is garbage and he doesn't like it, and other people say they are the best thing since sliced bread.  i have never used any of their products to once again im' back to the mercy of what people say works.  i'm not doubting that trick flow makes good products because they would not be in business for as many years as they have been, i'm just pointing out i've never used any of their products (afr for that matter too) so spending 1500 dollars on a pair of heads is a big investment for something i only have info. based on what people might say or what i read in advertisements.  back 5 years ago i bought the world roush 200 iron heads.  i did research, was on a budget, but was told brodix is better but the price difference was $500.  the article touts the heads i have as the best you can get, the size is good and they looked nice.  i'm not saying i got crap, just saying i made a decision based off of what i read, what they cost and the reasoning that $500 more for a product wasn't really worth it for something i knew little about.  i did the build, and have been using the heads for five years.  they work fine, they are way better than stock, but everyone talks about all these other products, and boast how much hp they have, and my numbers seem like garbage.  i like the car, it is fast, but how much different would it be with the brodix heads, or the trick flows??? i really don't know.  every application is different which is what makes the whole process so tough to figure out.  i started this post about which is better - trick flow or afr????  the word better is very relative because in one person's world the trick flow is better and another persons the afr's are better.  is there really a scientific way to figure out what heads work with what intake, and what cam??? if this formula equates into thousands of dollars then i'm going to have to wait on it.  however if someone has used the trick flow fast as cast on a similar 347, what intake was used, (mine is efi), what compression was obtained, any hp/tq numbers and the same goes for anyone who has used the afr 185 heads with a similar combo'd 347, what intake, what cam???  if anyone has these parts and has used them or has experience with others using them with success let me know.  i know i read jay allen has sold the fast as cast heads and people have liked them and he said in one thread they were his number one overall pick for a overall head.  by no means is this meant to be rude to anyone.  i apreciate the info. from everyone all the time.  just trying to make sure i don't make mistakes twice and the best info. in my mind is from the horses mouth.  i have a year to figure out what combo i want to go with, maybe longer if i get the car apart and i run out of money, so i really encourage anyone who has the aforementioned heads about to post some real world numbers or opinions on the fast as cast heads and the afr 185's.  thank you everyone, and i look forward to reading what lies ahead.   
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Is1BadFord
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2009, 03:19:53 am »

I completely understand where you're coming from.  100%...it's part of why we do what we do here.

That being said, you're still comparing heads that shouldn't be compared.  You mention one person's world versus another...well, that's an AFR 185 versus a TFS Fast as Cast 190.  The fast as cast has a SHORTER port, which means the cross section (what matters when it comes to cylinder heads) will be LARGER than even a 190cc AFR (if one were made).

If you insist on comparing TFS to AFR, compare the 185cc AFR to the out of the box Twisted Wedge at 170cc.  The TFS  will still the superior head, regardless of what Wyotech said about their comparison...but at least you're comparing heads in the same size range.

Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

I hope that helps.  I understand you are confused...but you really have to have a grasp on the basics before you actually become qualified to select parts for your own engine...and expect them to have a chance of working efficiently together.  My best advice to you is to email Jay when you're ready to purchase these items...and ask him what his suggestion is, then buy it.  All the deliberation in the world is just going to confuse you when you've got magazines, local racers/builders, and forums all buzzing in your ears, particularly when 99.99% of them can't be trusted due to either ignorance, or trying to market their own product.  There is NO WAY to be productive while listening to a hundred different opinions, and NO WAY to learn to make your own educated guess when those opinions are all so conflicting.

I'm sorry, there really is no other answer for you =(.

Cris 
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Jay Allen
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2009, 09:35:36 am »

Did you read this?

TFS TW is 4.75" long
TFS High Port Design (includes Canfield & FMS Z-304) is 5.25" long.
Everything else is just, well, everything else and it is 5.00" long.

When a "guy" says this head or that head, ask that guy why?  Make him explain why one head is better than another.  Get to the meat and potatoes vs bull$h!t information from forum members.

Where did I list heads other than TFS high port, Canfield, FMS Z-304, and TW?  Where did I single them out?  I didn't, did I?  Whistling

Now ask yourself why?
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Jay Allen
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2009, 10:12:59 am »

Welcome to sbftech Sonic...  glad you decided to have a look over here.
As I mentioned over on stangnet, you will recieve factual information on the TFS fast as cast piece.

I didn't realize you were wanting comparisons from one cylinder head to another...  I thought you were only interested in the Fast as Cast.  Either way, you get the excellerated learning/lesson to your questions.  Some information will be beyond your experience...  just ask for clarification, and do some searches.

You notice Jay Allen's posts are very technical/exact/factual...  he's a TEA/TFS Dealer and knows tons about it.  He's also the person I suggest for your complete topend combo if you decide to go this route.
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2009, 10:17:04 am »

You notice Jay Allen's posts are very technical/exact/factual...  he's a TEA/TFS Dealer and knows tons about it.  He's also the person I suggest for your complete topend combo if you decide to go this route.

Thanks Dana, I do try.

I sell:

TFS High Ports
Canfields
TFS TW
TFS TW-R
RHS

Of the 3 designed heads for a Windsor style engine, I sell them all.
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Jay Allen
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2009, 12:12:40 pm »

You have the expertise here to point you to the best combination. Set your budget, that seems like a good match to what can work best.

You seem to be willing to spend what is needed to get the most of the parts. What I see here is not enough emphasis on the camshaft.

The comparison between heads must include the camshaft. There are tons of examples of two engines with different heads, and the same cam. The one above with the AFR's versus the High Port's is classic. Those require different cams to optimize the power, thus that engine test comparison is garbage.

The high port heads are much different than the AFR's and others, the twisted wedge heads are also in a different plane for what cam is best.

From what I've learned here any high port will always be quicker than any AFR, if the cams are optimized for each in the comparison. I don't know enough about the TW heads to say where they fall with the high ports. I think the head budget has a lot to do with that. That's where that other thread put a limit of $2000 on heads and Jay put the TW FAC head at the top. Money was a big factor there.

In the end, a custom cam should be absolutely at the top of your parts list, no matter what other parts you change. If this is a final build, then there's no need to consider any other cam. Buy a custom cam, matched to the heads you choose, and have the cam designer do the valve springs etc. to match. I'd have Jay do all of that, look at that chart above with the 331 and Canfield heads. That's a 399rwhp engine with his cam and heads, bolted on, no porting or final tuning.

With that kind of power, you will not be lacking for low end power, at any rpm. Stop thinking in terms of bad forum myths(have to have low rpm intake). Skip the intake rpm specs, get a best flowing intake for your choice(EFI), that looks to be a TFS "R" intake, not the others. You have a 347, it can easily suck all the air available through any intake. Buy the best intake, custom cam and heads recommended. Be sure to tell the cam designer the rpm limits, he must know that from you.

Go to at least a 75mm TB, a 90mm MAF, 30lbs injectors, 1.75" headers, and 3" exhaust if you can afford all of that. IMO, the result will be more power than you have at any rpm you can name. The budget is the limiting factor, are you in?
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91 Mark VII LSC Special Edition, OBDII 347 and 4R70W soon.
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