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Grass Roots Tech => Grass Roots Camshafts => Topic started by: jetski247 on February 08, 2018, 03:52:22 pm



Title: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 08, 2018, 03:52:22 pm
just getting around to replacing the 5.8 in my f150
doner is from a 96 f150 5.8
block is stripped except for what is needed but would like to degree the cam before removal to find out what it is and for practice as well.
i could not find a good how to for us first timers, i have a 95 5.8 cam as well as an 89 5.0 cam that i could practice with and see what specs i get...

so any help would be great.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 08, 2018, 05:40:26 pm
and if a 302 can get 240ish hp then the 351 should have no problem achieving that right? not the 210 is says i have?


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: 347HO on February 08, 2018, 06:11:23 pm
You need the cam spec'd sheet to degree it in.
You could reverse engineer it but then....   You wouldn't be asking "how to...." Lol


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 08, 2018, 09:57:32 pm
i guess to check what degree the intake and exhaust open and close, lobe seperation, i doubt i have a way to measure lift? guess i need an engine builder locally to show me the ins and outs.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 08, 2018, 11:07:51 pm
well i guess i need to do more studying.....ive never built a pushrod v8 in my life but built hundreds of other engines just not mine. lol, i build performance jet ski engines for a living but those are way different animals...i know setting my cam up for optimal performance is key....i know how to on the engines i build but don't know these old pushrod engines much. i have a slew of tools at my disposal at work where my engine sits on a stand and watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1w8OU_8-JM but wonder how much this is real world such as incoming air, fuel used, timing etc.... the numbers look great but prob too much for my stock tranny to hold. i just want to build a "better than stock" rebuild with the parts i have.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: 347HO on February 09, 2018, 10:34:24 am
Set your engine up ready for cam degrading.

We will help instruct you through the entire process.

You MUST have true TDC and a movable pointer.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 09, 2018, 01:28:54 pm
will do, putting new moly rings in mon or tues with crank seals, suprisingly this thing still has nice crosshatching and no worn  lip at the top like most. only one snapped bolt on the head so far......i'll post pics too. thanks


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 09, 2018, 08:31:06 pm
cam on left is out of the 5.8
cam on the right i was "told" was from an 89 5.0
sorry had to edit:
WHEN YOU ZOOM IN, cam on the left is from the engine......the lobes on the two (even though the alignment hole is facing on both the exact same direction) are way off from each other....


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 09, 2018, 08:42:54 pm
here are a couple more pics.......
i didn't realize these engines were so simple, all main caps are numbered with arrows
all pistons say front on one side
all rods are stamped with letters on one side so you cant mix them up
cam and crank pulleys only go one way and have alignment dots
for a 147k on this motor, still has really nice crosshatching and pistons show very little wear as well as the bearings. im impressed, i was expecting a lot worse.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 09, 2018, 09:56:51 pm
If the 302 (5.0) cam is from a base engine, it will have a different firing order than a 351 (5.0) or HO 302.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 09, 2018, 11:38:03 pm
yeah, i was told it was a roller 5.0 ho, but those lobes are way the hell off.....seen some twisted cams before that threw us for a loop on some jap stuff........don't think that happens much with these engines.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 10, 2018, 12:48:51 am
and if a custom grind cam is what i need.......no prob.........tell me what i need to run out of all this stuff and tell me a custom cam will suit this truck and its done........as long as you help me put it where it needs to be........cuz im confused on if you degree a cam and can't align it where you need cuz the chain is one link off....close with this link but not perfect....next link is too far off.....so what do you do?

anyway, i guess a custom non emission cam sounds kinda nice.......keep as much of the explosion in the combustion chamber to get as much low end torque......but not too long....incase i get in the mud and need rpm...... :party

beers going down good.....lol


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: knucklefux on February 10, 2018, 12:55:57 am
one link is a lot of degrees.

you need an adjustable timing set.  the budget friendly version lets you advance or retard that cam by using a crank gear with several key ways so you can move the cam events relative to the crank.

the expensive version is a belt drive with near infinite adjustability.  not needed for your application.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 10, 2018, 10:10:57 am
http://fordstrokers.com/valve-train/timing-chain-sets/08-2003T-9G

You may see this set offered by some places at a reduced price, but beware. This timing set can be had with different quality chains.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 10, 2018, 10:16:57 am
You may also consider this.

http://fordstrokers.com/sbf-building


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 11, 2018, 01:05:01 pm
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/20302/10002/-1?ymm=4294829735+4294829830+4294827330

so how does this work? do you drill out the pully to accept this to get timing where you need it?


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 11, 2018, 01:13:51 pm
I tried them before. I'd avoid them.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 11, 2018, 01:51:41 pm
thanks, seems like a cheap patch.

what about ots cams for a truck? just stick with stock?
https://lmr.com/item/CCA-353498/85-95-Mustang-50L-58L-Comp-Xtreme-Energy-XE264HR-Hydraulic-Roller-Camshaft
found this one, seems there just isn't much out there for 4x4 trucks, seems to be mainly for high rpm with big stall converters.....
found a trick flow TFS-51403001
and this lunati: http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1656&gid=254


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 11, 2018, 02:44:29 pm
For a 351 truck, the stock Mustang or Thunderbird HO cams are good choices, especially considering that you already have 1.7 rockers.

If you want a OTS cam, I'm a fan of this one for factory head engines.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-35-552-8



Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 11, 2018, 03:13:55 pm
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/20302/10002/-1?ymm=4294829735+4294829830+4294827330

so how does this work? do you drill out the pully to accept this to get timing where you need it?

I tried them before. I'd avoid them.

I looked around and still have the kit and modified gear. You can see how much the gear had to be drilled out for the bushings to fit. I had this done by a machine shop (many, many years ago), and the bushings were still a very tight fit.

Its one of several things that I keep around as a reminder not to be cheap.

(http://sbftech.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=38721.0;attach=53524;image)


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 11, 2018, 03:33:30 pm
wow...thanks juiced.

i just hope that cam i have really is a 5o ho cam and not something else.....is there a way to tell?
or is it one of those im going to have to install and degree every lobe? half the lobes look the same but the other half are way the f off from the eye.....

looks like i'll just do a basic rebuild/rings and gaskets and use what i have for now.......then i can do the other engine properly as i go and budget allows.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 11, 2018, 03:54:27 pm
i just hope that cam i have really is a 5o ho cam and not something else.....is there a way to tell?

I'd just use a dial indicator to check the lobe lift.

The regular HO cam should have. 278" lobe lift on the intake and exhaust. There are a few variations throughout the years.

The 93 Thunderbird HO and 93-95 Cobra cam should be. 282" on the intake and exhaust. Even though this cam has slightly more lift, it is a little milder than the regular HO.

I say should because I've never checked a cam that was the same as rated specs. Some are close, while others are completely screwed.

All of the base cams should have a noticeably higher exhaust lift.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 12, 2018, 11:08:57 am
that cam you mentioned, will it need pushrods and springs?
been trying to find videos on cam degreeing, looks like i need a subscription to woodys vids, those seem pretty nice.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 12, 2018, 11:41:09 am
Springs? Different than stock? Definitely.

Based on your other thread, it looks like you are using heads that have been upgraded.

So, different than what's on them? Maybe.

Pushrods? Maybe.

Do your heads still use pedestal rockers, opposed to studs and guide plates? When the valve size was changed, did they use ones the same length as stock?


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 12, 2018, 01:27:01 pm
its been so long ago when i installed them, im almost positive they were studded. i think they had the chevy 190 intake valves, double valve springs, don't know seat pressure, i could barely move one with all my weight on top of it, not like the weak stockers that i just hit with a socket and hammer to remove them. i remember getting them real cheap with a bunch of other stock stuff like fms headers and that cam. it was suppose to be a whole swap over but i never put the cam in.

i have not pulled them yet off of the old engine, that thing knocked for about 5 years before it finally got too bad to run anymore....lol. they don't have many miles on them, maybe around 7500 or so since i put them on. never noticed any performance gains with them.....none at all, what so ever, not in the slightest. the maf conversion and edelbrock uppper/lower were the most noticeable power increase i could actually feel.
come to think of it, i think i actually lost bottom end torque. i bet they would be good under more compression.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on February 12, 2018, 01:37:47 pm
Guide plates require hardened pushrods.

Standard SBC valves are shorter than most sbf valves.


The best thing to do with the valve springs is check them out, or have a machine shop check them. I'd check installed height, seat pressure, pressure at 0.500", and coil bind.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on February 13, 2018, 11:04:53 am
well from what i can see, as well as a lot of pics on the net, the 5.0 cam i got is not the same firing order. the lobes are way off as well as the sprocket pin is shorter as well.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 06, 2018, 10:26:53 pm
about ready to do some cam degreeing with the stock 96 roller 351
just so im on the right page.....

could i put the crank in and just the number 1 piston/rod for tdc
and put cam in, timing chain/sprockets, and one hydrollic roller lifter with the dog bones and spider tray to hold them down and check cam lift and duration from the lifter?

what can i use in substitute for the lifter? i mean would a 3" extension or socket or anything that is solid that the dial indicator could ride on be better?


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: dennis112 on March 07, 2018, 04:08:31 am
Your basic method is right, but be sure to do both intake and exhaust to verify the cam is correct.

You will need to use a roller lifter--a none roller device will ride the lobes differently and you won't even be close to being accurate.  It doesn't have to be the exact roller lifter but its best if it is the same as what you are going to run.  Use the dog bones too because if the lifter gets cocked in the bore, it can gouge the cam.

Single factory type roller lifters are cheap.  You can get a couple and make them solid.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 07, 2018, 09:43:16 pm
i was thinking of using something else just because my dial indicator is what im not sure will ride on the lifter where the pushrod meets, but i guess i could put the dial indicator on the pushrod tip but it will have to be almost perfectly vertical.....i don't have a spare right now to make a solid.....how would you make one solid? just buy a single solid lifter?

since i have dial indicator extensions, is there any way to put it directly on the cam itself? like stick it down the lifter bore right on the cam lobe? yes i was going to do both intake and exhaust.

the only problem i see is that it may push the dial indicator extension to the side too much giving a false reading. i guess i could just stick it on the top of the lifter, the indicator does not have that much resistance.....thanks


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: 347HO on March 07, 2018, 10:12:17 pm
I set my rod extension into the socket of the lifter and measured lift from there.
I threaded my dial indicator rod to screw into the block's cylinder head bolt hole vs using the magnetic base.

The extension must be as close to lifter bore center/parallel as possible for accurate lift numbers.

I used a coat hanger for the wheel pointer but if your block is already painted...   Might as well set your permanent pointer at this time.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 08, 2018, 11:04:41 pm
i wish i could do that but my dial indicators hole is horizontal and not vertical. i'll figure something out for sure to dial this cam in, maybe advance it but at least.........practice and see what it actually is.

so......im going to put cam in and mock up a lifter and dial indicator and check number one cylinder to see what i get......not sure what im looking for but i'll post results on a stock 1996 f150 5.8l cam.

im assuming i'll dot to dot the cam and crank, spin the engine over a couple revolutions to get slack/slop out, measure intake lobe lift and duration......meaning what degree the intake lobe starts to open the valve and how far and how long.......then do the same for the exhaust. and im guessing that one cylinder is good for all? i guess if i wanted to check all cylinders they would be close to each other depending on how accurate your measuring skills???

i mean, do engineers factor in slop from cylinder firing from 1-8 and factor in wear and tear and grind cam lobes slightly different to compensate for slack or wear over time???? or do they just grind the same all the way around?

im just saying, i would grind a cam slightly advancing down the firing order to help compensate for slop and age......to make up the difference.......or am i just over thinking this whole thing?


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: 347HO on March 08, 2018, 11:23:08 pm
In case you don't know...
You have to find and mark TDC.  Without that, your measurements are corrupt.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 08, 2018, 11:46:44 pm
yes, i plan on marking tdc with a dial indicator and not a piston stop just because that is how i build the engines that i build. this is the first american v8 ive done but yes, i plan on finding tdc with the indicator and marking  it with a pointer on my degree wheel and hoping that there is no slop in the degree wheel and will make sure that it is set up that there is no movement as i spin the engine over because that will just throw everything off.....without knowing where tdc is....is pointless.

so i will do my best to make sure as i spin the engine over that my pointer and my dial indicator will be the same over and over again no matter how many times i spin the engine over........but im about to find out......lol......


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: dennis112 on March 09, 2018, 04:06:22 am
yes, i plan on marking tdc with a dial indicator and not a piston stop just because that is how i build the engines that i build.

so i will do my best to make sure as i spin the engine over that my pointer and my dial indicator will be the same over and over again no matter how many times i spin the engine over........but im about to find out......lol......


IMHO, using a piston stop will be more accurate than using a dial indicator due to piston-to-cylinder wall slop.  The stop is very repeatable when placed on the piston, and coupled with a degree wheel, will lessen doubt of the results due to relying on less variables.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 09, 2018, 03:56:13 pm
dont you have to use a dial indicator to set the piston stop?


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: CDW6212R on March 09, 2018, 05:11:34 pm
dont you have to use a dial indicator to set the piston stop?

The method is to mark on the crank degree wheel, each point where the piston stop, stops the piston. Then you know TDC is between the two marks, and the degree wheel is very big, so you have good accuracy, and can also mark the balancer.

That 5.8 cam is a roller yes? Ford only made three SBF roller cams, the HO, truck(yours), and the 80's Thunderbird(93-95 Cobra)cam. They used them in various models, my Explorers have the same cam. Lots of people dislike the truck cam, I don't know why. It hits 5000rpm easily automatically in my SUV's, the Lightning did well with it, oh well.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: dennis112 on March 09, 2018, 06:11:46 pm

The method is to mark on the crank degree wheel, each point where the piston stop, stops the piston. Then you know TDC is between the two marks, and the degree wheel is very big, so you have good accuracy, and can also mark the balancer.

Exactly.  Here is my home made piston stop:

(http://www.loco4fomoco.com/FM/Dennis111PistonNotching/pic1.jpg)


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 09, 2018, 09:10:11 pm
yes, 96 f150 roller cam

i see the benifits of the piston stop, you would only have to find tdc once, mark it and you can do whatever you want with spinning the engine over and you will always know tdc as long as your degree wheel does not move or you bump your pointer or something like that.

im just curious of the cam grind and want to practice while ive got it out and all the stuff to do it. and if i see that i need to advance 2 or 4 degrees then i can make that judgement call....


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 09, 2018, 10:47:58 pm
oh yeah, what are the stock 5.8l pistons and rings specs?

are they cast? moly ring? napier second? hyper?

the rings are def smaller than the 5/64 aftermarket stuff i got, thats for sure.....


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: juiced coupe on March 09, 2018, 10:57:25 pm
Probably 1.5/1.5/4.0 mm.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: 347HO on March 10, 2018, 11:29:40 am

I second that


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 10, 2018, 12:16:27 pm
so let me see if i can type this out.

eyeball tdc, set the piston stop and lock it down
set pointer to 360/0? or whatever, it really don't matter
spin the engine over and take a reading
take the difference and devide by two? move the pointer and that is tdc?
i'll have to watch that vid again, just trying to understand this and why not a dial indicator.lol.. im sure im way over thinking this whole damn thing when a fifth grader could do it.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: dennis112 on March 10, 2018, 05:17:33 pm
With a piston stop, you actually want to stop the piston from rotating toward the top of the cylinder.  This will seem counter-intuitive vs using a dial indicator.
  
Install the degree wheel and a pointer so that it is eyeballed zero when the piston is at the top from the cylinder.  Move the piston a small amount in either direction (maybe 15 degrees from TDC) and install the piston stop.  Adjust the stop bolt so that it just touches the piston.  Once touching, move the piston away from the stop a few degrees.  

Rotate the crank either way until the stop prevents the piston from rotating any further.  Don't try to force the piston past the stop.  Note the reading on the degree wheel (use a coat hanger bolted to the block as a pointer.)  Then rotate the crank the opposite way until the piston stops again and note that reading.   TDC is the difference (middle) of the 2 readings of the area that you COULD NOT turn the crank.    

Remove the stop and rotate the crank the #of degrees difference that you just determined.  The piston will be at its highest point in the cylinder.  This should be TDC and its where you want the pointer to be at 0 (or TDC) on the degree wheel.  

After moving the degree wheel and pointer to locate TDC you will then want to re-verify this so rotate the crank away from TDC and reinstall the stop.  Rotate the crank both ways against the stop again to verify that the pointer stops to the same# of degrees on either side of TDC as seen on the degree wheel.  Adjust as many times as necessary until you are sure that you are at True TDC.

From then on make sure you do not accidentally rotate the degree wheel without moving the crank nor should you readjust the pointer.  If you do, you have lost TDC and will have to start over.

Clear as mud?

After degreeing your cam you'll want to use the degree wheel to verify that your factory pointer shows zero on your balancer when at true TDC.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 11, 2018, 04:07:15 am
thank you, i'll read this a few times when its not 2am and im a 12 pack into it. but......i see what your saying except that, which way do you turn the crank after you do the math?

lets say you set the piston stop at zero.
you rotate the engine and come up with 348 deg when it hits the piston stop
so your 12 degrees off
so which way do you turn the engine?

im just not seeing this whole thing......the hundreds of jap engines and french engines ive built you only have to find tdc one time, count timing chain links for both cams and your done.....you can advance and retard by moving the cam a tooth or so..............but your talking worn out crap......

we only read tdc once and with a dial indicator....there are several and i mean several training vids and books and manuals on how to find tdc with a dial indicator. this is the first v8 and im like wtf......lol.....double over head cam, four valve, shim under bucket....no prob....lol, this two valve, pushrod, non interference engine is just got me stumped......


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: dennis112 on March 11, 2018, 08:28:23 am
You need to hit the stop in both the CW and CCW directions in order to compute True TDC.  Both are mentioned above.

Here is a step by step example with numbers:

1.  Rough eyeball TDC before adding stop.
2.  Move degree wheel/pointer to zero and lock down on balancer.

3.  Rotate crank roughly 20* CW and install stop, making sure the bolt just touches the top of the piston.
4.  Rotate crank 300+* CW (Yes CW again) until you hit the stop.  Lets say it stops at 338*.  This is your first real measurement so write it down.  
5.  Next rotate crank CCW until it hits the stop.  Lets say that it now reads 16*.  Write it down as your 2nd measurement location.  From these two values you can now calculate True TDC.
6.  First subtract 338 from 360 (TDC= 0/360), which gives you 22*.  This gives you the value from TDC that you found when going CW.
7.  Add that value to the value that you found when going CCW.  22+16=38.  
8.  Now take the 38 that you just computed and divide by 2, which gives 19.  
9.  Subtract that from the value that you found when rotating CCW.  16 -19 =-3.  Since it is a neqative #, you will need to subtract that 3 from 360.  That will equate to 357* on your degree wheel.
10.  357* is where True TDC is currently found on your degree wheel.  At that point the piston will be at its highest point in the bore.

11.  Remove stop and rotate crank to 357*.  
12.  Carefully loosen degree wheel from crank and rotate the wheel to "0" and lock it down.  You now have the motor and degree wheel both aligned to TDC.

Truth be told, you can also use your dial indicator method to find TDC if you want to and work with that.  It will not be as accurate as to what I am trying to portray to you, but unless you are using an infinitely adjustable timing set like this (which lets you set the cam timing up perfectly):  

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3735

Specifically note the slots (under the 6 bolts) that allow adjustment on the upper cam gear.  
If you are using the simpler multi key version without the slots, you will at least be in the ball park.






Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: CDW6212R on March 11, 2018, 10:07:06 am
Well said Dennis, and I know it's much harder to describe the process, than to do it. I found TDC my first time in 1980 with my first Cleveland engine. A friend helped me and he was about 31 and had only built two engines before.

Back then we didn't have all the amazing aftermarket parts. Learning everything about balancing and blue printing an engine was a big factor to gaining any decent power over stock. Back then a 351 making 450hp was very very special. Now it's easy and 500-600hp is not a big deal.


To jetski247, don't become too worried about absolute perfect cam timing. The normal timing chains should get it within 2-3 degrees of where the timing design is made for(machining tolerances of the cam). So those decent timing sets costing $50 or so are very good choices, unless you have to have the last hp possible(the cam is custom made for that combo and needs to be perfect). The high end timing sets to get it closer to perfect, they cost a lot more. So decide based on your combination and how near maximum power you want it to get for the budget, select the timing set that makes the most sense. A $6k engine should have a very good timing set, a $1k engine shouldn't need it.


Title: Re: first time cam degree ing...
Post by: jetski247 on March 11, 2018, 11:42:09 pm
well said and thank you very much.

i understand this engine is a dot to dot engine but would like to practice while i have it on the stand. not really looking for any hidden hp...(stock engine lol) but would like to grasp the concept. the engine that is coming out will be a full stroker rebuild for sure :ban

thanks again Dennis and CDW. those are the answer's i was looking for. and im assuming the computer will correct for not near perfect timing and wear and tear so the need to find true tdc or even counter adjust for future wear is not really needed in a computer controlled engine.??? i guess?

learning a new way to find tdc is for sure a......lol......... learning curve
all these years using a dial indicator to find tdc and i see all these piston stop stuff.....and im like wtf?

it was hard to grasp at first, i was like, who in the hell would use a piston stop to know where tdc is? i was always taught to watch the dial indicator when its stops and just starts to turn the other way after removing any slop and spin the engine over a few times first. that is how i always built any and all engines where i really really needed to know tdc like a rotary valve two stroke which even then gives you a 10 degree allowance or range.

but building 1.6L 450hp inline three cylinders.......everything and i mean everything has to be right on the money and tripple checked.......and ive always used a dial indicator but those are way way different engines. i would have never even known about a piston stop.....its always been dial indicator.

anyway, if time allows, im going to "try and degree" this stock cam on number one and see what variance of a grind i got, more less for knowledge than anything, and if i ever get to the day i build some romping 500+ hp stroker, i'll know what im going.

thanks again guys, i'll post up pics of what i got in a few days, kids are off for spring break and im off of work to spend with them, if i get a chance i'll be posting back with a whole bunch of " what do you do when this happens" kind of questions. for the mean time, engine is wrapped up at work stuffed in the corner until i return.