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Small Block Talk => Small Block Windsors => Topic started by: 82-GT on September 14, 2017, 12:57:31 pm



Title: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 82-GT on September 14, 2017, 12:57:31 pm
This is the one. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mez-wp373u/overview/make/ford
Trying to cut down on parasitic loss and the water pump seems to be a biggy.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 347HO on September 14, 2017, 02:13:54 pm
IMO based on physics...
You are moving the load from a mech pump to the alternator switching to an electric pump.

A good solution is to consider the STE 14000 pump (normal rotation) or its alternate for reverse rotation.

The above is for street driven app.  Drag app I would use electric on a on/off switch.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 82-GT on September 14, 2017, 02:21:33 pm
Thanks for your reply. You are correct of coarse but I can switch off the electric pump during the run but I can't the mechanical one. It's a street car so that's why I picked this pump. Probably would have been a good idea to give this info in the original post but I'm not that smart some times.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 82-GT on September 14, 2017, 02:29:49 pm
The pump you posted does look to be a better alternative. guess I'll have to rethink my options.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 14, 2017, 04:31:01 pm
IMO based on physics...
You are moving the load from a mech pump to the alternator switching to an electric pump.

The most generic, unspecific answer to a question I have seen in a LONG time.

How exactly does all this "physics" play out though?

The load from the mechanical pump is there as long as the engine is running. The load being transferred to the to the engine from the water pump pully via a belt which is about 98% efficient.

The load from the electric pump is there only when there is 12volts and a good ground at the pump. The load is at the alternator which is only about 65% efficient which is driven by a belt which is about 98% efficient.

So in theory, an electric water pump could be less efficient than a mechanical pump. BUT, you get the benefit of turning on and off the electric water pump when the engine is running via the flip of a switch, a luxury you don't have with the mechanical pump.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: juiced coupe on September 14, 2017, 04:51:39 pm
The electric pump also runs at a steady rate, instead of increasing with engine rpm. Spinning the mechanical pump at high rpms is bound to take some power.

For me, the benefits of the electric pump had more to do with cooling down between passes.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 347HO on September 14, 2017, 09:17:01 pm
I want to believe if electric pumps where better at any rpm, NASCAR would be using them, but they aren't currently.

More importantly is the application.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: knucklefux on September 14, 2017, 09:41:23 pm
nascar not using them could just be a matter of rules though.

i'd like to see the math on how much HP it takes to spin the water pump at WOT vs how much HP it takes to spin the alternator w/electric water pump vs. without the electric water pump.

without actual data, it's hard to give an accurate answer.

if these data exist, i'd like to see them.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 347HO on September 15, 2017, 01:57:21 am
Mine came with data from the cup car it was tested on.
5hp at 9000rpm 1:1 ratio.
3/4" orifice.

I'd put money down an electric can't even keep up with that much heat.
Now turn up the voltage (use more amps) and if you can keep it from cavitating...  Again, I put money down its gonna be close to same loss but less efficient cooling.

I would need the amp rating of the pump and how much it flows to convert to hp required vs efficiency if you still want your facts.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: juiced coupe on September 15, 2017, 05:49:59 am
My drive kit pulls 7 amps and turns my Edelbrock pump at 2100 rpm.

Whatever that converts to, it keeps my car cool on the hottest days in the south.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 15, 2017, 02:48:03 pm
The electric pump also runs at a steady rate, instead of increasing with engine rpm. Spinning the mechanical pump at high rpms is bound to take some power.

That could be a blessing or a curse. At high rpm you need more cooling capacity so a pump that spins faster as RPM increases might not be a bad thing.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: juiced coupe on September 15, 2017, 02:58:19 pm
The electric pump also runs at a steady rate, instead of increasing with engine rpm. Spinning the mechanical pump at high rpms is bound to take some power.

That could be a blessing or a curse. At high rpm you need more cooling capacity so a pump that spins faster as RPM increases might not be a bad thing.

I don't disagree.

But IMHO, any application that needs that amount of flow shouldn't even consider an electric pump. But I think a lot of people get caught up in numbers.

There are pros and cons to each setup. People just need to decide what features better suit their needs.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 347HO on September 15, 2017, 03:39:52 pm
Yah...  Definitely application is paramount.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: juiced coupe on September 15, 2017, 04:42:56 pm
Yah...  Definitely application is paramount.

To be honest, I'm not sure where you'd draw the line.

A quick Google search turned up several cases of people using the better electric pumps on road race cars. While I understand that a 20 minute heat race in a 350-400 hp car isn't the same as a Cup race, I still thought it was impressive.

I couldn't count the number of street cars I've seen with them. And we all know how bad traffic can be on cars that are more strip than street.

Then there is the reliability aspect. Mechanical pumps have proven themselves, while the electric pumps have had some ups and downs. But people seem to be doing well with the high end pumps.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 15, 2017, 07:19:35 pm
nascar not using them could just be a matter of rules though.

i'd like to see the math on how much HP it takes to spin the water pump at WOT vs how much HP it takes to spin the alternator w/electric water pump vs. without the electric water pump.

without actual data, it's hard to give an accurate answer.

if these data exist, i'd like to see them.

Parasitic loss relative to RPM is no simple matter. Pulley ratio, belt design, pulley weight, mechanical pump impeller and bearing design. Some water pumps flow more coolant per revolution than others and that means more parasitic loss.

And what RPM is WOT? That may differ engine to engine.

Any data out there would be a ballpark figure at best using averages for all the unknown variables. Either that or the data is application specific and only applies to that combo.

My observations have led me to believe that eliminating the mechanical pump will "free up" about 4hp-8hp most of which is seen at higher rpm (upwards of 5K RPM).


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: knucklefux on September 15, 2017, 11:23:18 pm
WOT isn't an RPM, it's wide open throttle...therefore it's when the max load is on the engine for a given rpm.

it doesn't have to be some amalgamation of every fucking car out there.  i'd like to see some same day dyno numbers with mechanical and electric pumps to get some real world data...but i don't care enough to do it myself. 

not really a fan of your judgement, so your observations are not really a consideration. 



Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 16, 2017, 11:05:36 am
WOT isn't an RPM, it's wide open throttle...therefore it's when the max load is on the engine for a given rpm.

it doesn't have to be some amalgamation of every fucking car out there.  i'd like to see some same day dyno numbers with mechanical and electric pumps to get some real world data...but i don't care enough to do it myself. 

not really a fan of your judgement, so your observations are not really a consideration. 



Throttle position and engine load have nothing to do with parasitic loss at the water pump. RPM has everything to do with parasitic loss at the water pump. Which makes me wonder why you would want to see how much HP It takes to spin the pump at WOT. As RPM varies, how much HP it takes to spin the pump varies, although there wont be much difference till after 5KRPM most of the time. Wether or not the throttle plates are wide open means nothing here. How much the engine is loaded means nothere here as well.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 82-GT on September 16, 2017, 01:21:35 pm
Don't late model Corvettes use electric water pumps?


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: knucklefux on September 16, 2017, 10:34:12 pm
you win z.

i'm dumb.  you're always right.  i don't know why we don't all just do exactly what you do and think exactly how you think.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: al2 on September 16, 2017, 11:39:53 pm
I believe that BMWs use a electric water pump.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 82-GT on September 17, 2017, 07:20:41 am
That looked like some of the conversations I used to have with my x-wife


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: knucklefux on September 17, 2017, 12:36:54 pm
i bet your ex wife has better tits though.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: 82-GT on September 18, 2017, 08:33:29 am
30 years ago maybe. Now? Who knows.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: vristang on September 19, 2017, 09:27:24 am
My thinking, although others here have vastly more experience than I do...

For a straight comparison between mechanical and electric, the mechanical should win for efficiency (coolant flow per hp consumed).  Mechanical pumps directly convert crank speed to coolant flow, where the electric pump has to convert crank to electricity, then electricity back to coolant flow through the pump motor.  More conversions of power equal more efficiency losses.

Unless... pump speed can be controlled to exactly what it needs to be through a variable speed controller (similar to variable speed fan control).
In this case, you aren't stuck with running the pump at engine speed... you can truly control the coolant flow rate based on engine needs (regardless of rpm).

then again, this is regarding efficiency of the system... which may not relate to hp/acceleration ability, and ignores the fact that the alt/battery can create electricity when it isn't needed, storing it for when it is needed.
I think the battery is another advantage to the electric pump system, which is easy to overlook.

first to admit, all just theory... I too would like to see some data, but don't have the drive/time to go looking for it...



Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 19, 2017, 07:27:09 pm
My thinking, although others here have vastly more experience than I do...

For a straight comparison between mechanical and electric, the mechanical should win for efficiency (coolant flow per hp consumed).  Mechanical pumps directly convert crank speed to coolant flow, where the electric pump has to convert crank to electricity, then electricity back to coolant flow through the pump motor.  More conversions of power equal more efficiency losses.

Unless... pump speed can be controlled to exactly what it needs to be through a variable speed controller (similar to variable speed fan control).
In this case, you aren't stuck with running the pump at engine speed... you can truly control the coolant flow rate based on engine needs (regardless of rpm).

Even with a controller used to vary the speed of an electric pump, it is still an inefficient system for the reasons we both touched on.....coolant flow per hp consumed. Alternators are only 60ish percent efficient, no way around that.

The big advantage I see is that the electric pump can be turned off completely. Seems a good thing in a drag race. Turn it off for however many seconds it takes to finish the 1/4 or 1/8, then turn it on.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 19, 2017, 07:34:26 pm
you win z.

i'm dumb.  you're always right.  i don't know why we don't all just do exactly what you do and think exactly how you think.

A logical explanation on your part would go a long ways.

The relationship between engine load and parasitic loss at the water pump. I am curious to see what you come up with, if anything at all.



Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: RunninHorse on September 19, 2017, 07:50:22 pm
Wouldn't an electric pump coupled with a WOT alternator cut off switch be the winning combo?  Add to that the ability to cool an engine when it's not running.  Assuming reliability is comparable, it seems like a nobrainer.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: knucklefux on September 19, 2017, 10:23:07 pm
A logical explanation on your part would go a long ways.

The relationship between engine load and parasitic loss at the water pump. I am curious to see what you come up with, if anything at all.


it's fucking hilarious that you think that i owe you an explanation.

however, i'm going to do it here just because.  it's not going to be a habit, and i'm rapidly getting out of the habit of replying to your idiocy at all.

the reason that WOT, therefore max engine load, is important for determining the difference between the losses is that it eliminates a variable.  the HP an engine makes isn't consistent throughout the rev range...it makes less HP at lower load.  any properly scientific test will eliminate as many variables as is reasonably possible.

if you look at the hp cost of both pump setups at a specific rpm, you will get a different reading at steady state than you will at WOT.

now, if you knew a goddamn thing or bothered to actually learn rather than argue and just spout off your random opinions on what you "logically" conclude, i wouldn't have to go into all of that.  if you have questions that you would like answered, you should try asking the questions instead of being such a contrary cocksucker.  unfortunately, you think that you're entitled to answers which makes people REALLY not want to give them.



Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: Antti66ht on September 20, 2017, 09:13:37 am
I have used meziere 50 gal/h pump on a 408w with so far good success. The main reason of ditching the mechanical belt driven pump was, due to its habit of throwing a belt when ever I reached 7000 rpm. Now when the belt runs only the alternator, no issues.

The cooling of engine is not improved when water flow speed is increased, after certain level. With high rpm operation pump just cavitates and makes cooling inefficient.

Turning the pump does not give any benefit on dragstrip. You will still be charging the battery, and alternator will draw the same amperage. Turn of your alternator and you may see some benefit...

For me it has worked just fine, and I have not have any issues with cooling, as long as the electrical fan is running as it should. These big fans draw current from25 to 30 Amps, which is matter not to be overlooked. They sometimes burn the 30 Amp mega-fuse I have, and then it starts to get hot in traffic lights...


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: juiced coupe on September 20, 2017, 09:41:30 am
Here are some of the things that I've seen, noticed, or found during research.

It takes less than 2 hp of engine HP for an alternator to supply 60 amps. That is ~5-8X what most electric water pumps draw.

There isn't a pulley ratio available that is optimal at 2000 rpm and 8000rpm. If you are optimized for crushing in traffic, it will be over-spinning at 4X the speed. And this is where the high rpm power loss comes in.

Trying to run setups made for street use at high rpm has problems:

-The increased load is prone to slinging belts off. Yes, deep pulleys can help.

-The pumps aren't made to turn that high. I've seen more than a few mechanical pumps blow the housing gaskets when used at high rpm. This tells me that they are likely cavitating, and doing more harm than good.


Race situations are another story. Their cooling systems are designed to work within the constraints that they run under. This doesn't mean that they would be optimal on a street car.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: juiced coupe on September 20, 2017, 03:55:50 pm
These big fans draw current from25 to 30 Amps, which is matter not to be overlooked. They sometimes burn the 30 Amp mega-fuse I have, and then it starts to get hot in traffic lights...

If you are blowing 30 amp fuses, you may have a problem. It actually takes a good bit more than a fuses rated amperage to blow it.

What fan/fans are you using?
What is the wiring arrangement? Wire size/length, relay size/type, fuse location, power source location?
Which type fuse holder? Inline, with the terminals in a rubber holder (most common). Or the marine type with the heavy terminals and screw type wiring connections?


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 20, 2017, 04:46:01 pm
the reason that WOT, therefore max engine load, is important for determining the difference between the losses is that it eliminates a variable.  the HP an engine makes isn't consistent throughout the rev range...it makes less HP at lower load.  any properly scientific test will eliminate as many variables as is reasonably possible.

if you look at the hp cost of both pump setups at a specific rpm, you will get a different reading at steady state than you will at WOT.

What variable gets eliminated when testing at WOT?

It makes less HP at lower load??? Do you mean less HP at lower RPM?

So WOT is max engine load. Pretty sure I can put my engine at WOT with no load on it at all.

Anyhow, this whole WOT idea is USELESS. It takes a certain amount of power to turn the pump. How far open the throttle plates are makes no difference in how much power it takes to spin the pump.

Sure, the amount of HP an engine makes will not be consistent throughout the RPM range, but what does that have to do with how much power it takes to spin the pump? My motorcraft pump takes about 5hp to spin at about 6000RPM. This fact does not change one bit no matter how much HP the engine makes at any RPM.........or WOT for that matter...lol


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: knucklefux on September 20, 2017, 05:31:20 pm
lol indeed.  you're so fucking stupid yet so full of yourself.  it really is a special kind of retardation that you have.

the reason for WOT is that you would have to test on a dyno.  in order to measure a difference, you would need for all conditions to be the same from test to test EXCEPT the thing you're changing.

so-if you checked the difference in power at 5k rpm on both pumps, you won't necessarily get accurate info unless the dyno is loading the engine the EXACT same amount.  the ONLY way to get usable data to compare which pump setup costs the least power is to run both at WOT.  also, when's the last time you saw a dyno operator test the HP of an engine at anything but WOT? 

you're making a whole heap of noise about my WOT comment in a (failed) attempt to discredit what i'm saying.  this sort of tactic is the one you resort to when you don't have any useful input, but want to participate in the conversation anyway.  i'm over it.  since this forum doesn't have an ignore function, i'm just going to ignore you myself.  it's clear that you're beyond saving.

i'm going to go yell at the wall now.  it will be more effective than trying to convince you that you don't have a clue what the fuck you're on about.


Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: z-adamson on September 21, 2017, 04:36:38 pm
Last I checked, the amount of HP it takes to operate a water pump comes down to the following...

Gallons per minute
Vertical distance in feet that the water is traveling
Friction losses
Pump efficiency
Specific gravity

In this case the equation would look like this...

HP = distance traveled + friction loss X gpm X specific gravity / 3960

Once those numbers are crunched, divide the outcome by the efficiency of the pump and belt drive. You now have the answer as to how much engine HP the pump is consuming.

------------------------------------

In my case, with my 347, with the pump at 6000RPM, the pump is flowing 65 GPM through the restriction of the system....not free flow.

Water has a specific gravity of 1. Ethylene glycol has a specific gravity of 1.10. A 50/50 mix gets me a specific gravity of 1.05.

There are a ton of friction losses within the block, heads, radiator, hoses. Looking at one of the many, many friction loss charts on the net, and looking at the water jackets, hoses, radiator etc... I get a value of 403.

Soooo, I get a formula that looks like this...

HP = 403 x 65 x 1.1 / 3960 = 7.2222

My belt drive with proper tension and a belt that is in good shape is 98% efficient.

So, 7.2222 / .98 = 7.3695 HP from the engine to turn my water pump at 6000RPM.

Then figure in the small amount of rolling torque it takes to overcome seal drag, bearing drag etc. within the pump.

My pump will flow 22GPM at 2000RPM, 43GPM at 4000RPM. I could calculate those out as well.



So, again, what does WOT have to do with any of this???



Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: knucklefux on September 21, 2017, 06:42:48 pm
repeatable results on a dyno require WOT.  how is this even a thing that needs to be beaten to death?

just pretend that instead of "WOT" i said "back to back dyno pulls" and move on.  :dissap:



Title: Re: Meziere electric water pumps. How do they cool and hold up?
Post by: Haystack on October 30, 2017, 05:24:01 am
The most helpful comment I saw here, 7 amps to drive a water pump to cool a car. 7 amps at 14v is about 98 watts. Lets round up to 100 watts, that's .13 hp, or about 1/7th of a hp.

2 hp for a 60 amp alt seems about right. 60 amps = about 840 watts at 14v, or about 1.13hp. Factoring in belt loss and about 65% efficiency I'd say that 2hp makes sense. Most of my stock cars only pull 20-30 amps at idle, but even still.

For me, if that electric motor dies, I probably can't get another one to get home from AutoZone. I can drive highway and baby the car city with no fan, electric or mechanical. Not so much with an electric water pump if it decides to shit the bed.

My $.02