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Small Block Talk => Small Block Windsors => Topic started by: 302_coupe on October 31, 2016, 03:34:33 pm



Title: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 302_coupe on October 31, 2016, 03:34:33 pm
The Southeast Gassers have made plans for a D/Gas class next year, 10 lbs per cubic inch class rule. They already run A/Gas (6 lb/cube) and C/Gas (8 lb/cube).  I'm starting in D/Gas since I'm not a veteran racer.   These guys race to 1967 rules, and the engines externally must look the part.  Aluminum heads are allowed (must be painted), stock valve angles, no canted valves unless its stock arrangement ( i.e. 351C).  Intakes have to be old school (no air gaps or victors, etc), no dominator carbs, tunnels rams allowed with inline carbs (no sideways), no forced induction or n2o.  Manual trans only, driver clutch, no aids.  Oddly, they do allow 351C and 429/460 even though 1967 rules, obviously FE engines and Y blocks are fine.  I know windsors, so thats the direction I'm taking, hope to start the build in early '17 and start racing the '18 season.  I'm not afraid of a cleveland if it make sense. 

I've got a 50 Ford coupe, Ford says shipping weight was ~2900 lbs, add a cage, driver etc, it should be 3200-3300 lbs at the scales, so I'm thinking 331 stroker.  Can run a bigger engine and add ballast to meet the weight rule.  They race 1/8 mile, and I think to be competitive in D/Gas it'll need to run low 7's.  Traction shouldn't be too difficult in this class, they allow a 30x10 slick, and old school ladder bars and a straight axle up front are req'd by rules.   

As a rough guess, does the collective think 450-500 hp will get my old shoebox some competitive ET's? 


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: scienceguy on November 01, 2016, 10:55:50 am
The best intake for the 302 back anywhere near that era would be a HEAVILY ported Offenhauser Port-O-Sonic.  That was THE hot intake before the Victor Jr.  Might find an old one that has been fully ported from back in the day if you look really hard.  Else...  it will be time to do a lot of grinding.

As for competitive intakes for a 351W from that era...  they don't exist.  The 351C is your only choice in that displacement range.

If you go 351C, you'll need to find a Strip Dominator. 

Good Luck!


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: juiced coupe on November 01, 2016, 11:48:57 am
The best intake for the 302 back anywhere near that era would be a HEAVILY ported Offenhauser Port-O-Sonic.  That was THE hot intake before the Victor Jr. 

 :whs:

Another option would be a ported Edelbrock Torker 289.

The hard part will be finding a unmodified version to start with. These intakes were often hacked on by backyard porters. I remember people selling them at about scrap metal prices, now they fetch decent money on ebay.


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 302_coupe on November 01, 2016, 12:35:11 pm
power wise, how would the torker and port-o-sonic compare to a tunnel ram?  The engine will primarily operate from 5000-7000rpm.   


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: scienceguy on November 01, 2016, 02:06:08 pm
power wise, how would the torker and port-o-sonic compare to a tunnel ram?  The engine will primarily operate from 5000-7000rpm.   

If you can use a Tunnel Ram...  Definitely go that route!  The Weiand T-Ram is better than the Offy...  by a lot.
If you cannot use a T-Ram, the Ported Offy POS is the best, then the Torker/Weiand 7515 Accelerator. 

Good Luck!


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 302_coupe on November 01, 2016, 02:52:54 pm
tunnel rams are allowed and seem to be a common choice, at least among the SBCs in the class. 

 


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: juiced coupe on November 01, 2016, 06:46:24 pm
tunnel rams are allowed and seem to be a common choice, at least among the SBCs in the class. 

 

The inline carb deal is the worst part of that. So that leaves AFBs and Holley 450 TR carbs, 390/600 VS's, and 660s. None of those are really appealing to me. The 660 center squirters aren't too bad but finding parts can be troublesome at times.


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: scienceguy on November 01, 2016, 06:49:54 pm
tunnel rams are allowed and seem to be a common choice, at least among the SBCs in the class. 

 

The inline carb deal is the worst part of that. So that leaves AFBs and Holley 450 TR carbs, 390/600 VS's, and 660s. None of those are really appealing to me. The 660 center squirters aren't too bad but finding parts can be troublesome at times.

You can get adapters to turn them sideways, if you want to run double pumpers.



Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: juiced coupe on November 01, 2016, 07:24:23 pm
You can get adapters to turn them sideways, if you want to run double pumpers.

Rules:

Intakes have to be old school (no air gaps or victors, etc), no dominator carbs, tunnels rams allowed with inline carbs (no sideways)


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: quickshift on November 01, 2016, 09:08:28 pm


Another option would be a ported Edelbrock Torker 289.

 
   This is what I run on my 289....pulls strong to 8600 +!   :347ho:


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 302_coupe on November 02, 2016, 10:05:00 am
Class rules for dual carbs is 660 cfm each max, no center hung float bowls, must be in-line not sideways.

If single carb, can run larger cfm with center hung floats, and must have scoop sticking through the hood.  

Either way, the carb has to be the traditional gold colored cast Holley, no modern style Holley remakes.  

Rochesters are allowed even though some are larger than 660 cfm. I'm not sure if AFB's or Edelbrocks are allowed-haven't seen anyone running those or the Rochester, regardless.  



Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: Ammosteve on November 02, 2016, 10:40:47 am
Are you allowed to use and aftermarket block?


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 302_coupe on November 02, 2016, 12:13:24 pm
yes, just can't be aluminum  Was thinking about a Dart SHP. 


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 289nate on November 02, 2016, 12:27:08 pm
A 331 with aluminum heads and a tunnel ram is very capable of 500 hp and more when done right.  It's also capable of running much faster than 7.00 in the 1/8 when whole package is right.

My opinion is that the class will get a bunch faster by 2018.  A Cleveland with or without aluminum heads, a tunnel ram, and single carb top with a dominator could make some serious power.  Same with a 429-460 Ford or big block Chevy.  They come with a weight penalty but well placed ballast can work to their advantage.  What would they say about an aluminum headed Boss 302 stroked to 331???

I would concentrate as much on the clutch (sintered iron disc fully adjustable pressure plate set up by someone like Rob Youngblood or Tim Hyatt), transmission, and gearing (transmission and rear end) as the engine.  The clutch will help 60ft, consistency, offer adjustment for varying track conditions, and reduce parts breakage when done right.  There can be a few tenths just in the clutch, transmission, and gearing.

I could see this class quickly becoming expensive to compete in and a whole lot faster than 7.00.  Certainly sounds fun though.


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 302_coupe on November 02, 2016, 01:13:25 pm
I'm not sure if an aluminum headed Boss 331 would be legal, maybe.  I know its not hard to get 500hp out of a 351C - pretty much just cam and compression and rpms.  Dominator carbs aren't allowed.  It would be a heavier engine, and I'd have to add weight to the car, and everything downstream takes add'l stress.  

The goal of the Southeast Gassers is to put on a good show and have fun, re-live heads up racing like it was back then.  Modern technology is generally not allowed, and efforts are made to keep all cars competitive with the genuine counterparts from 1967.  If someone shows up with a survivor A, C or D/Gas car, they want that car to be competitive in its class without having to change it.  A win doesn't have a big payout.  Everyone wants to go fast, and some have more $ to blow on it than others, so there's always that to deal with, that's racing.  But there is no incentive (other than ego) to get all exotic and high dollar for D/Gas - the "slow" class.    

For D/Gas, they start checking weight if you're quicker than 7.25.  C/Gas, they start checking at 6.50.  I think that's a good indicator of what times the competition should be running.  There's no incentive for someone to run 6.50's in D, because it just takes more effort running those times at 10lb/cube than it does at 8lb/cube.  

Hightower transmissions has a trans/clutch package that the fast guys use.  Not cheap but it lasts.  I'll probably have more $ tied up in that than I will the engine.      


Title: Re: SBF for old school drags- Southeast Gassers
Post by: 302_coupe on September 26, 2017, 10:20:31 am
Wanted to update the thread....things have changed and I've sold the '50 coupe, building a '63 falcon hardtop now.  I think the car will end up weighing around 2800 with me in it (250 ish  :-\ ), so I'll run a little ballast.  That being the case, I'm gonna start out with an old street 302 build I have sitting around, I don't think there will be any concern of running faster than 7.25 with it, so the weight/cube isn't an issue yet.  I will be building a somewhat high rpm 289 in the future for the car.  I've learned that the record for D/gas is 6.70, but the current 2 fastest cars are 6.98-7.00 and getting faster. 

I'm starting with a 4.86 gear in back, the jerico has  2.60/1.65/1.33/1 gearing.  Thinking I might need to re-evaluate the gearing, especially when it comes time for the higher rpm 289. 

Purchased an old hilborn injection setup a while back, just too cool not to try it, but I'm afraid it'll need to be sold to get the budget back on track.  Will start out running a vic jr and 650 dp on the 302 - boring.