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General Tech => Aftermarket Tuners - Generally => Topic started by: rob342 on January 07, 2016, 08:48:17 am



Title: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 07, 2016, 08:48:17 am
i've read TONS. enough to be confused 10 times over.  i'm smart. i use linux, i program arduino's, i run a sucessful business... yet i'm confused. i'm hoping that after i'm done with this thread it will be a good read for other confused people diving in head first.


yesterday i installed my LC2 wideband and DB gauge.

the car cruises at 14.7-15.0
it idles at 14.8
WOT through 3rd,4th, 5th, it is steady on 11.4.

this is with a stock 92GT, no emissions, with a 76mm BBK MAF, premium fuel, and 14 base timing. car feels great for what it is.

(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx184/rob_342/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/Capture%20Custom.jpg) (http://s754.photobucket.com/user/rob_342/media/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/Capture%20Custom.jpg.html)

I'm going to throw the quarterhorse in right now, and i'm still quite confused... but diving in head first.

1- is there a good read on datalogging for absolute beginners like myself anywhere? i don't fully understand how to do this. it seems everything i read is over my head or assumes i know more than i do.

2- do i need to get a USB to serial adapter and attach my wideband to my laptop with logworks to adjust lambda for E10? this is all new to me.

3- i'll be reducing the timing to 10 and I'm going to use the A9L2 tune. any advice from those who understand the "dummy feeling" i have from this steep learning curve?


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 07, 2016, 12:36:26 pm
well, it's in. it runs.

only headache was trying to get this white plastic bracket out to chop the back off.
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx184/rob_342/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/IMG_6608.jpg) (http://s754.photobucket.com/user/rob_342/media/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/IMG_6608.jpg.html)

i even made a cable for the tune selector. someday in the future i'd like to program an arduino to switch tunes via momentary push button, while also illuminating a corresponding LED to let me know which tune i'm currently running.
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx184/rob_342/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/IMG_6607.jpg) (http://s754.photobucket.com/user/rob_342/media/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/IMG_6607.jpg.html)


so.. how does one learn to datalog?


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 07, 2016, 12:45:54 pm

the car cruises at 14.7-15.0
it idles at 14.8
WOT through 3rd,4th, 5th, it is steady on 11.4.

Good, that's about what you should see on the DB gauge. Can't see the pic right now.

I'm going to throw the quarterhorse in right now, and i'm still quite confused... but diving in head first.

1- is there a good read on datalogging for absolute beginners like myself anywhere? i don't fully understand how to do this. it seems everything i read is over my head or assumes i know more than i do.
BE itself or rather EA more likely has help sections on what to log if that is your question, rather than how to log.  Cause you have a QH, best just log everything, it can handle it.  Leave off N_BYTE, needed only with Tweecer.  That will get you all the data you need and then some to look at.  Are you asking how to understand the data?
2- do i need to get a USB to serial adapter and attach my wideband to my laptop with logworks to adjust lambda for E10? this is all new to me.
My bad, started to follow up but never finish.. :)  To configure, or log WB without using EGR input, Yes
My advice, don't get into the whole E10 hang up.  It confuses most and really doesn't matter.  Just leave as straight gas and accept that 14.7 is stoich. OR switch to LAMBDA display.  I do the first since I'm an old timer and feel 14.7 type numbers better.  Like being use to inches rather than millimeter.  Even if the fuel is E10, Ewhatever.  If the tune is right, you'll display 14.7 and that's good enough. Then richer is richer and leaner is leaner.
3- i'll be reducing the timing to 10 and I'm going to use the A9L2 tune. any advice from those who understand the "dummy feeling" i have from this steep learning curve?

Yes, set to 10deg.  Everything in BE expect it to be that.  If it's not, the numbers displayed or entered will be off by that amount you are from 10.
With A9L2 tune, just bear in mind that is a one size fits all to get you running and is set up for boosted applications.  You may need to fiddle with more things to get it driving 'perfect'.  I feel I've learned more by playing with the stock tune.  But if you're just after get it up running fast and interested in WOT performance mainly, go for it.  Then follow up with questions on decipha's site on it's nuances.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 07, 2016, 04:05:18 pm

BE itself or rather EA more likely has help sections on what to log if that is your question, rather than how to log.  Cause you have a QH, best just log everything, it can handle it.  Leave off N_BYTE, needed only with Tweecer.  That will get you all the data you need and then some to look at.  Are you asking how to understand the data?

I guess I kinda figured out HOW to log, next i'll attach the WB to the EGR and try to get that working. I attached the file I made(it's only about a minute long)

in BE when recording, the RPM sits at 0. any idea why?  when i rightclick the gauge on dashboard 2, rpm is defined as "N". not sure if that is relevant?

i have the tune burned to all 4 positions in the QH. i don't know which it's using. tune #0 i assume.


I will try to datalog my ride home from work later and then my next question will probably be about what to do with the data.  :)


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 07, 2016, 04:17:06 pm
I'm waiting to see how this goes for you' I want to pick up a Quarterhorse and BE but I've been put off a bit on the tuning aspect of it. If you figure it out I may have to pop over for help if I need it. You're not far from me and I would assume cheaper than a tuning shop  ;D.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 07, 2016, 04:18:50 pm
Do you have the right mode selected in the hardware setup tab? Forget which option the are and don't have my stuff here at work.  N is correct for RPM, but there are numerous other items behaving so might be the mode.

RPM shows as 1550 and desired rpm shows 800, temps 130 and 64.  None of these are moving and should be.  Timing looks like registering right. It's low at 14 at what is probably idle.  So you are probably idling higher than desired.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 07, 2016, 04:53:00 pm
i have it on mode 1 right now, as per here: http://static.moates.net/quarterhorse/qh_notes.txt

i'll try mode 2, but i want to use the external switch to change tunes.  i'd eventually like a performance tune, a MPG tune, and a tune that exaggerates the idle lope for carshows


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 07, 2016, 04:58:58 pm
I'm waiting to see how this goes for you' I want to pick up a Quarterhorse and BE but I've been put off a bit on the tuning aspect of it. If you figure it out I may have to pop over for help if I need it. You're not far from me and I would assume cheaper than a tuning shop  ;D.

....and getting cheaper by the day, recently switched from beer to coffee :)  it's funny on my maiden voyage i drove 2 blocks slow, got a little too happy because it ran, stomped on it in 2nd, and then noticed it wanted to keep going. something with the A9L2 is giving me a hanging idle. should be easy enough to cure though compared to the rest of the learning curve.... scared the hell out of me though as i wasn't really somewhere i should be flooring it(traffic).  :whistling:


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 07, 2016, 05:46:52 pm
Yeah, try opt 2.  There have been a number of posts over the years of people having issues when using the switch.  No reason you need all those tunes.  One will do all, except if you want to exaggerate and make it idle bad.
Since you run fine with a stock tune, i'd suggest loading the stock A9L to make sure you don't have hardware issues.  Like not cleaned connector enough.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: David Claflin on January 07, 2016, 06:14:23 pm
There is some good info on this site.
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13425

http://eectuning.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=296656702885d4b5c3312d10130dbedb

I'm certainly no expert, but I would suggest don't get too hung up on chasing "ideal" numbers in all situations. If the engine seems happy I don't mess with trying to make the air fuel ratio just so.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 07, 2016, 08:43:08 pm
David I will check those links out bright and early when I have a little peace and quiet.

I did get it to datalog and with the wideband. the MPH is surprisingly accurate.  I have attached the log. my novice opinion is the car pulls higher into the RPMs than before but the idle needs work. the RPM's kinda hang and take too long to drop, like the IAC is being lazy. reminds me of driving my PT cruiser with the AC on.

85_GT the only change to get it working was to change it to "mode 2"


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 07, 2016, 10:36:11 pm
Glad that fixed it.  Stuff looks normal in the log without scrutinizing it in detail. 

Those symptoms are the 'failsafes'  he added to run, not stall, etc.  Just things to be adjusted.  Even the A/C air was raise in it.  So if you turn on AC, it'll idle much higher.

Just realized you were boosted, so yeah, you're seeing some benefit of his tune as the stock one would be 'clipped' after you got into boost.  Best stick with it.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 08, 2016, 02:35:17 pm
Those symptoms are the 'failsafes'  he added to run, not stall, etc.  Just things to be adjusted. 

i gave up. too much. i tried following along here 5x with no improvement. i did make the car refuse to idle for a short time
http://info.efidynotuning.com/idleair101.htm#baseidle

i'll try it again in summer when it's warm and i enjoy being outside. i ended up going with "mechanical idle control" -it's simple, it works. i'm happy with the idle. i have it sitting at 750 and it doesn't feel like i'm on cruise control when i let off the gas.

now i'm playing with the DFSO to see if i can pick up MPG, and just to tinker with it and learn.

i'm planning to read this a few more times http://info.efidynotuning.com/fuel101.htm
if i determine i need adjustments, i'll try the IAC idle method again. it says i can't dial idle air until i get the fuel dialed in. 

i'm planning to go buy a serial to usb adapter so i can set the wideband for e10.  i want it right and accurate so it's less confusing to me down the road.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 10, 2016, 12:24:44 pm
well i got the DFSO working. i see the gauge peg to 22.4afr when the injectors shut off so i can see when it's working...but speaking of AFR...

i bought the wrong damn wideband gauge!! the sensor is good, the control box is good, but the output on the gauge is more or less useless for what i need to see. i need the readout to be Lambda, not AFR. i read that over and over and over and over in the Lasota tuning guide and also on the eec forum, but it didn't sink in what i was reading until i finally comprehended it. :duh

i can display the wideband o2 in lambda instead of AFR on my laptop, but sheesh.

so rather than spend a small fortune on one, i may build a gauge. the arduino mega 2560 cost me $30, the screen/keypad that attaches to it was another $15.  

i will tie the the output wire of the wideband controller to one of the many analog input pins on the arduino. it will read the sensor value of 0-5v, do the math, and spit out the numbers i want on the screen.  the beauty of this is i only have to figure out the math once.

(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx184/rob_342/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/Capture_3.jpg) (http://s754.photobucket.com/user/rob_342/media/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/Capture_3.jpg.html)

it only says that because i told it to. it's not actually doing anything. i'm still impressed the screen says anything right now. i picked it up from my local nerd store on the ride home last night. i've never attempted to put a screen on an arduino before. it always seemed too far over my head. i know when it's doing the math right, lambda 1.00 should be 14.13 for E10.. splitting hairs but if i'm bothering to try to learn all this junk, it may as well be accurate.

i know that seems silly to bother, but i'll remember the fuel table numbers and if it's programmed to be 0.88 at WOT, i'd like to see 0.88 on a gauge....or mre specifically i'd easily see it's 0.95 on the gauge and i'd realize it needs adjusting.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 10, 2016, 04:17:38 pm
Lot of work, little return.  You're going to tune with data logs and the PC.  Gauge is just along for the ride. 

If you like WOT of .88, you can leave your table with AFR gas and you'll have a value of 12.9 in the table.  Then you expect gauge to read 12.9 too.  Regardless of the fuel blend.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 11, 2016, 10:06:24 am
Lot of work, little return.  You're going to tune with data logs and the PC.  Gauge is just along for the ride.  

If you like WOT of .88, you can leave your table with AFR gas and you'll have a value of 12.9 in the table.  Then you expect gauge to read 12.9 too.  Regardless of the fuel blend.

alright i'll skip the arduino project and keep tinkering to learn.

i'm having a hard time grasping why there are "Hysterisis" values. It seems they only exist to overcomplicate things. for DFSO, to me it seems that it's only there to subtract 100rpm.

example:

DFLOD   | Fuel - DFSO Maximum Load
DFLODH | Fuel - DFSO Maximum Load Hys

what is the purpose of Hysterisis values?

i see them all over but haven't grasped why they exist. it seems to me that if i just put in a DFLOD value 100rpm lower it would be the same thing and i could set the DFLODH to 0. is that correct?

I'm just messing with the DFSO as it seems a "safe" place to learn/comprehend... possibly pick up mpg.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 11, 2016, 11:24:07 am
so.. how the hell do i change the outer numbers?   :??? ie:

"-10 40 90 140 190 240 242"
to
"-30 10 50 90 136 182 228"


i was copying all the values from the X3Z to the A9L2. now i'm scratching my head. this is the last thing i need to change.

i've been copying over values and reading their descriptions for an hour. this is the final table in the list and now i'm stumped :P


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 11, 2016, 12:56:45 pm

i'm having a hard time grasping why there are "Hysterisis" values. It seems they only exist to overcomplicate things.

Oh no, they keep you from breaking things.  The hysteresis values are in essence the software version of a electrical debounce circuit.  Easiest example would the A/C cut out.  Say you have it set to a load of 70 percent.  At 70 it cuts out, just below 70, it cuts in.  Go up a hair and it cuts out again.  It could lead the ac clutch to cycle so rapidly that it would buzz and eventually give out.  By having hysteresis, it basically delays the switching.  So if you happen to be on the gas pedal just enough to hover at load of 70, it's unlikely it would hit 65 unless you really eased up on the gas.

So basically any values in the scalar tab (you don't see the tabs with the way you're viewing it below) that are use as a trigger value for something to happen, will also have a hysteresis values to prevent that unintentional bouncing.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 11, 2016, 01:01:42 pm
so.. how the hell do i change the outer numbers?   :??? ie:

"-10 40 90 140 190 240 242"
to
"-30 10 50 90 136 182 228"


i was copying all the values from the X3Z to the A9L2. now i'm scratching my head. this is the last thing i need to change.

i've been copying over values and reading their descriptions for an hour. this is the final table in the list and now i'm stumped :P

You probably don't want to use x3z values.  Decipha has always said it was a bandaid of a tune by guys that weren't that skilled.  His A9L2 tune should have it all set up correctly other than 'turning it on'.  Not sure what value it was to do that.

Regarding the other, are you wanting to change the cell values, or the column heading values.  If the later, he change to 242 and the values to 0 as a fail safe to save the engine if it over heats like that.  By having 0, it stops the fuel and kills the engine until it cools back down.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 11, 2016, 02:28:21 pm
i read what you are talking about and where he said not to change it, but i thought he changed that to 242 as a fail safe in the fuel tables only.  but now it seems he has 242 as more of a global thing throughout the tune. correct?
i understand what you're saying about the hysterisis values now. makes it much clearer. thank you.

so instead of changing the column heading values, i just stared at both and figured i'd see what happened. i kinda did what i could to scale these to the X3Z values using the A9L2 heading values. looks like this now.

with his A9L2 values i couldn't even drive the car.  it was annoying with all the fail safes. i felt like i was driving with cruise control. trying to set it like he described in the "idle101" page did nothing to fix it. so i shut off the IAC and used the stop screw on the TB to make it idle at 750. that was OK on a warm engine, but it was 0 outside this morning and it didn't want to run.  i was sitting in the car with my foot on the gas to warm it up, freezing my ass off, thinking about how every morning i'm going to be sitting in there freezing my ass off, and decided that wasn't how i wanted my future to be.

anyways, with the X3Z stuff i have it idling smooth as low as 500 rpm.   i can start it cold and it starts/runs/drives like it should.  in the future when i'm smarter i'll give his method another shot


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 12, 2016, 11:10:31 am
"but now it seems he has 242 as more of a global thing throughout the tune. correct?"

The column and row headings use through out are populated with the Scaling Functions.  If you go to tab view, you can quickly see just Functions.  Scroll down and you'll see Scaling ones.  The descriptions will tell you what tables they affect.  Each is common to a few tables.  That's why it 'looks global'.  Not independent for each table.

It'll be there somewhere in your view (with that tree on the left) just maybe under something else if it's not in a 'scaling' section.  Like might be under Misc or such.  If you get rid of that view, you'll see 3 tabs. Scalars, Functions and Tables.  I find it easier to work that way cause I think in those terms, then click the tab of interest to me.   Each kinda increases in complexity, simple on/off values, single x vs y line, then tables (multiple xy lines).

His most recent A9L2s incorporated a 'mechanical like' idle.  Earlier ones didn't. You'd have to read up on it and how to properly set it up so you can just use the TB screw, and it should still retain some 'auto adjustments' for dashpot, ac, etc. 

I find it easy enough to just figure out what the tables/functions and scalars need to be filled with after some data logging.  Others have a harder time with it.

Reason you want to have your 'fuel dialed in first' is that you maybe altering some of your MAF transfer function to get it dialed in.  That affects what the eec thinks it's getting for air, and almost all those IAC settings are air values.  So you'd have to start all over on all of them each time you touch the MAF curve in that region.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 13, 2016, 09:51:01 am
ok.. another day.. i'd like to learn to understand the fueling.

i read this, over and over and over..
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx184/rob_342/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/Capture_4.jpg) (http://s754.photobucket.com/user/rob_342/media/mustang/Moates%20Quarterhorse/Capture_4.jpg.html)

it does not explain how to compare what i have vs what the wideband says. can you help me understand this? 
if i had to guess, i would open EEC Analyzer and go to mapping, select 'LAMBSE1' for table 1, and 'Wide Band O2' for table 2. then set both to 'Average', and hit 'Calculate'. when i do this, i get the attachment you see 'Capture4.png', indicating i'm either using a crappy data log, my car is WAY off, or i'm doing it wrong. i'm assuming i'm doing it wrong.


i'm also confused as to the criteria that should be met in order to have a datalog with any value.

-should i only start recording when the ECT is over a certain number, like 180?
-if i start recording when i get up to 180, drive a few miles in traffic, and then floor it to 6000rpm, is that enough or reliable data to start with?
-if the tires break free does that screw it up? traction is minimal right now as it's 0 here and the streets are slick with salt. in the datalog i used to make the attached PNG, the tires were spinning...a lot.

after i get this stuff comprehended, my next question is going to be how/where am i supposed to adjust lambse to match the wideband


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 13, 2016, 11:37:31 am
Can't see your first image here at work, unless it's the map view attached at the bottom of your post.  So can't answer to that now.  But can give some general guidance to your questions.

You have EA, that's good.  Forget the Mapping tab.  You can use it down the road to get more insight if you wish.  Your friends are going to be the Data Log tab, MAF tab, and Injector Slope tab.
The chart tab is my main goto when I'm looking for issues/glitches to know where to zoom into for data of interest. 

Jumping to your last question. Using the MAF curve function, as obtained from the MAF tab, and/or the injector slopes/breakpoint from the Injector Slope tab is what controls the amount of fuel at any given time.  You adjust these values (generally to what EA spits out) to get WB to match the commanded LAMBSE.  Once they are adjusted correctly, any LAMBSE you put in tables will be what you see show up on your WB.  At that point, you start 'tuning' for best performance by changing the table values.

Now going back up.  Regarding criteria.  Log it all.  From key start.  Not so necessary now, but you'll be able to look at how the engine behaves as it warms up.  Your friend the data log tab has a filter button.  Once you open the log up, you filter out items that can throw things off in the calculations.  You want to take out transient things that are handled with other tables and functions.  Things like cold engine, acceleration enrichment, open loop, closed loop, idle state, etc.  Can post a snap shot of my typical filters tonight.  Something not to long ago was posted on eectuning.org by crey8 of some recommended filters.

When you run the calcs, either MAF or slopes, you do one at a time.  Run one, make changes, relog.
You'll do this often as you get more comfortable and start obsessing on perfection lol.

I find I get almost there with just injector slopes, leaving MAF alone.  Then if there are any anomalies, it might need a MAF tweak.  Say very low for idle.

You're log shows only open loop.  I usually used closed loop and rely on KAMRF values to dial in slopes.  And once they are pretty good, I'll look at WB for open loop top end to see if the MAF needs any fine tuning. 

Since I don't need to rush things, I like getting a nice long drive in for the log.  Almost all of it comes from morning 20 mile commute.  Once dialed in.  Short runs are enough for things like getting timing/performance data.

Since you're open loop, a good log would be a 2nd gear pull from idle to WOT.  The MAF and Slope tabs have options for both open or closed loop calculations.  If that still looses traction, may want to tune closed loop.  You'll be able to exercise the engine enough from low to high LOAD values in closed loop without needing a WOT pull.  If fuel is right from 10 percent to 70 percent LOAD, your WOT will be right too unless MAF is off at higher flows.



Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 13, 2016, 09:02:02 pm
Ah, it's a snap shot of Michael's write up.  Kinda said same in my reply.  That's dialing in fuel.  So what you command in the eec actually gets delivered.  Don't confuse this with the optimizing that occurs later.   

His second paragraph goes over how to adjust and do calculations the manual way if you don't have EA.  Basically calculate percent or ratio it is off and apply that the the injectors slope or maf curve.

And the use of filters removes those cold engine conditions stated in the beginning.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 14, 2016, 10:44:12 am
do i just go to injector slope tab in EEC analyzer,
click "settings", pick "automatic", type 19 where it says 24, and then click calculate using PW vs required fuel?

i did this with datalog filters PW1, PW2, MAF filters set to filter out the 0's, and ECT to filter out anything under 165.

i have changed my high slope from 19.02 to 18.44, low slope from 26.09 to 24.58, and BP from 5.01 to 4.95. 

i'm going to go clear the KAM's and see how it runs.

i'll datalog on my way home and see how my commanded AFR matches my LAMBSE.. how do i compare these anyhow?


_____
oh, i could hear it pinging at 5900 last night... kinda makes me want to learn faster. i'm never usually over 5000 since it's more or less a stock HCI turd right now.--


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 14, 2016, 10:59:28 am
Yeah, that's about it.  Probably was a choice for short term or long term closed loop and open loop.  Think it prompts you if to use 14.7 or datalog values at some point.  Pick datalog.  Good for a first run.  Filtering out TAR greater than 0 will remove the 'accelerator pump shot'  Usually filter out non 0 AEFUEL EFTRFF.  It'll take out more of the swings in the little chart it shows.  Also like to not use idle, so TS 0 and 1.  Not -1  But fine for a start.

If you put in back in your original values after the calc, you'll see how your 'fuel line' looks through the data versus the one you calculated.  The new one should have the line going through the center of most of the data points.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 14, 2016, 11:04:12 am

 how do i compare these anyhow?


Once you load the new log, use the chart tab for a quick visual.  Select AFR for Pen 1 and LAMBSE 1 or 2 for Pen 2.  Which tube is your WB in?  Actually won't matter since you're open loop and both LAMBSE's will be the same.  But for down the road, if in CL, I compare the AFR to the LAMBSE the WB is in.  1 is pass side, 2 is driver side.  You'll see differences in CL as eec adjusts.

You can zoom in and scroll at see how close they follow each other.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 14, 2016, 11:43:53 am
Oh, and a rough interpretation of your results.  Since it lowered the slopes, it means it's adding fuel cause you were leaner than expected.

As an aside.  E10 requires more fuel that straight gas.  Which the original values were for.

Since it now needs to get to a roughly 14.2 ratio.... 18.44/19.02 x 14.7 = 14.25... hey what ya know.. :)


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 14, 2016, 12:41:21 pm
the car does use closed loop. it was last night. seems it's always CL when floored and i also had it say CL in a couple times when not WOT.

funny with that chart... after choosing a pen, you right click the graph and go to properties and enable the pen. couldn't figure out why the chart was blank.

here's a datalog from a few minutes ago. the high plateaus in green are the DFSO turning off the injectors when i decelerate

would you say the filters are set how you meant?

as for the chart, i used lambse2 because i installed the wideband in the driver side. i put it there because i had more room to weld since engine trans are offset to the right.

in a chart you'd make, these lines are basically right over one another? i'd like to see that


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 14, 2016, 12:47:27 pm
Oh, and a rough interpretation of your results.  Since it lowered the slopes, it means it's adding fuel cause you were leaner than expected.

As an aside.  E10 requires more fuel that straight gas.  Which the original values were for.

Since it now needs to get to a roughly 14.2 ratio.... 18.44/19.02 x 14.7 = 14.25... hey what ya know.. :)

ha! neat.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 14, 2016, 01:55:05 pm
You're getting the mechanics of it.  For dialing in purposes, you should disable the DFSO.  Even though you're filtering that out or think you are, you still have the lingering effects of it when it comes out of DFSO. It will skew the calculations.  Best save it's use for afterwards.

Just plot OL and look if it has two values.  Your earlier post with a data log, I don't recalling it being anything other that 1. 
1 is OL, 0 is not OL (CL).  The dashboard view while running/drive has always had it back wards by default.  Some have said it was fixed in recent BE releases but can't confirm.  And someone always brings it up now and then.
Your chart shows it too.  LAMBSE would be bouncing back and forth around 14.7, more or less depending on how close fuel was.  Your only variation is from different loads and follows the baseline fuel table.  Oh and mike's table number in his write-up is for cbaza, not gufx if you couldn't find it.

Filters. Not bad.  Can make TAR just 0 0.  I'd pick a higher ECT.  Default adaptives don't start till 170.  Not sure what he has in there.  That's the temp at where the KAMRF's start to update.  I use something like 195-205 or 210. Not much need to filter out maf.  Can leave PW out to if you redisable DFSO.  I'll filter out at times PW below say 2 or so.  That's usually the region of deceleration when they get that small.  Reason for, the smaller the PWs get, the more of an impact the injector offsets make.  And if you don't have good data on them, it helps to isolate that out.  You need to work that also too.  Those last three shown filters will have lingering affects too but not much can do about that and won't be that large. It does smooth out the results a good deal anyway.

My chart cause i'm closed loop looks very busy and they don't lay on top of each other but follow.  I use the serial input for my WB and there is some extra delay.  That's why the filters page has the WB Time Shift option.  But I don't bother.  I'll look more closely at the WOT portion of the chart.  That's where I expect my commanded say 12.5 to pretty much follow the AFR reading.  It's never perfect.  The start and stop portions seem to have some lag. But the rest will be within a point or two averaging out by eye some oscillation that appears.  Too many things going on for the actual AFR to ever be perfect and flat.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 15, 2016, 10:41:29 am
well it drove fine after changing the injector slopes and breakpoint. feeling ambitious, i adjusted the maf curve. it recommended a very minor change in the curve.

the only thing i didn't like with the recommended numbers was the MAF curve it recommended ended at 856 instead of 922... so i grafted the two together in excel. i have a 19lb BBK maf with "cold air calibration". there's no datasheet available for mine.  seems to run great.    

i was all excited to datalog on the ride home. i drove to the bank, came back to work and shut the car off. 2 minutes later when i restarted it wideband was being a POS.  i bought a new sensor, i'll look at it later.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on January 15, 2016, 01:48:23 pm
That's where the stock curve end at a voltage just under 5V.  For all practical purposes, you're out of meter if you're at that point.  Time to get something bigger.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on January 28, 2016, 07:53:09 am
so.. the sensor i bought was a bosch 4.2, which it says would work, but the unit came with a more modern bosch 4.9.

i finally have a replacement 4.9 o2 now, but i see the failed one is very black and sooty. it's a very dry, wipes right off kinda soot.

i believe this is either because (all wild guesses, due to current lack of experience)

1- it runs way rich at cold start up with the A9L2, and it's been very cold out, requiring quite a while to warm up

2- my factory o2's may just be too old and sooty to be accurate anymore. maybe i should replace them? i hate buying stuff that isn't needed though.

3- i occasionally smell burnt oil after decelerating

4- by the time i felt smart enough to datalog and adjust the fuel and maf, perhaps the wideband sensor was already out of calibration, so my data was skewed? it failed only a few hours after the datalog i used to adjust the injectors/maf

i'm afraid to put the new sensor in, as i'm afraid it'll fry in short order.  
so now i'm a bit confused as how to proceed.

i could pick up a bosch 4.2 locally from autozone/orielly and just warranty it every week until i get it tuned better and then put the 4.9 back in... this would let me tune it(or maybe someone here knows how to get a 4.9 sensor locally?)

i did notice the A9L2 tune will make the motor fall on it's face for the first minute or so that i drive from a cold start. like it'll randomly cut out when i push the pedal more than a third but less than two thirds, and wants to bash my face into the steering wheel.

i read this a few times, but it says "if you're sure your fuel is dialed in" -which i am not.
http://efidynotuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=738

how should i proceed?



i'm also (happily)slammed at work. been working 6am to 7pm and time to read/tune/tinker is at an all time low. i get home at 7:30, cook, eat, and go to bed at 9.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 24, 2016, 09:59:19 am
i think i'm getting it. the car runs well. i'm confused as EA keeps wanting me to raise my low slope and lower the high slope and breakpoint... latest it wants 16.75 and 27. currently I'm running it with 17.33 and 23.25.  should I keep doing what it tells me? dropping to 16.75 would richen it up and I believe it's already a bit richer than i'd like when i'm cruising and decelerating.

anyone care to grade my work?

edit: since i'm using a tweaked a9l2 tune and I like how it's running, I have enabled MFA mode. would this possibly be why it keeps telling me to go lower and higher on the slopes? like it's trying to correct for a non-existant condition?


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 24, 2016, 12:21:01 pm
Can't get the log to download here.  Can you zip it? Maybe to large.
The maf looks pretty normal.  Going by the values, guess it's 'cal'd' for stock 19s?
You left to top and bottom voltages in there - good.  Recommend that the 0v have the same value as the one above it.  But shouldn't cause anything as it.

So, without seeing the log it's hard to say if it's rich or not.  EA suggestion  is wanting to fatten up long injector widths, like at WOT, and lean out short widths like decel and low load conditions.  Injector offsets start becoming more of a significant impact at short widths.  If it thinks it's rich on the low slope, reducing offsets sometimes is required.  Are they stock injectors?  Verify that offset function is the same between the stock A9L and the A9L2.

Also, are you doing one change at a time?

If when you use the MAF tab/calculation, you need to reload your modified curve back into EA each time you've adjusted it for the next log/calculation.   Secondly, what it recommends and you put in into BE may not be same.  The cell values in BE only have so much resolution for a given parameter.  BE will automatically round up/down values to fit (cause it's a binary field).  So after you load them and run and log, export that curve back out to insert into EA before the new calculation.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 24, 2016, 01:28:41 pm
wow! i had no idea the zip file would take it from 20mb down to 3.


yes the car has 19lb injectors

the MAF is a 76mm BBK with cold air calibration. when i contacted BBK about the MAF curve/transfer sheet, i was asking for more than they knew. i picked the stock foxbody MAF in EA and went from there.

to answer your question:
YES. i'm only doing one at a time (injectors) i believe i have the MAF more or less perfected so lately i just datalog the ride to work, analyze it, update my tune, clear my fuel trims, drive home, and then datalog the ride to work again the following morning. 
or if by "one at a time" you mean am i only changing the high or low slope each time, then no. i have been changing the high slope, low slope, and breakpoint each time.  since i'm getting better at this, i'm starting to wonder why it keeps telling me to make such drastic changes each time. i would expect it to only want me to adjust things .25 or so, but that is never the case.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 24, 2016, 09:09:48 pm
See your KAMRF's are stuck at 1 in the log.   Bin shows, you disable adaptive control on purpose?  And looks like you changed idle adaptives too.  Unless his latest version has them set like that. 

You reenabled WOT mode spark control, but never repopulated the WOT spark function.  He has it zero'd out.  Did it have any power going at WOT??

Just some quick things that jump out.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 24, 2016, 10:27:10 pm
I have the a9l2 with only injectors and maf adjusted.
 The idle he wrote I replaced with stock a9l stuff because the idle would hang.  I changed the idle to 680, and I enabled MFA. Other than that it's the stock a9l2 tune. What should I do to tweak the fuel correctly? I datalogged the ride home and I'll datalog the ride to work.

If it helps I can use the stock tune with my maf and post that.  Once I get the fuel injectors dialed I think I'll have learned the basics.

I have plenty of power. I've been smoking Audis and Camaros all day. WOT is great. The car's fun sand wild to drive. I've never touched any spark tables


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 24, 2016, 10:57:52 pm
Hmm... you're right.  Just downloaded his latest.  Odd that he has

AFACT1   Fuel - Adaptive Control ACT Minimum set to 258 which effectively disables.  The older version had it at 20 degrees. 

And
Z_WSPKSW   Spark - WOT Mode Spark Control Enable/Disable is enabled.  Which uses the normal function like stock.

This is how it shows up when I open his file.  Is it same for you? 


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 25, 2016, 10:34:28 am
AFACT1 says 258 on mine.

I cannot see "Z_WSPKSW   Spark - WOT Mode Spark Control" -I deleted the scalar from my xls definition file because I had an error popping up. when I googled it, I found this: http://www.efidynotuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1545#p17906


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 25, 2016, 11:02:33 am
they WERE updating. ill look at it. I had a bad upload a couple days ago. maybe when I cleared them and then re-uploaded the tune it's still stuck on clear (meaning Z_KAMCLR)

in the datalog from Feb 21, KAMRF's had actual values.

i'll re-upload the tune to my QH, and post a new datalog tomorrow.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 25, 2016, 12:33:29 pm
Yup, the Feb 21 were updating and looks like you're rich.  This morning log, they are stuck again


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 25, 2016, 12:46:43 pm
Yeah, even though the tuning isn't really hard, the is a bit of ATD, attention to details, in the process.  Until you get that automatic groove, things like 'unsetting the kamclr' can bite you. lol  I thought that yesterday til i saw the 258.  Decipha said it's fine and a def file thing.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 25, 2016, 03:31:18 pm
it seems to be working again. this datalog is about 30 minutes, maybe 15 spent idling. then I filtered it using the filters you told me to use previously. I drove around installing some signs at a couple carwashes and let it run while I worked.

now it wants me to change the high slope to 16.xx, the low to 32, and the BP to 2.05

should I give it what it wants and see what happens?
should I possibly replace the o2's? they might be 23 years old.

I renamed my tune to something "easier to notice" ;D. I think at some point even I mixed up A9L2 and my A9LR.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 26, 2016, 12:18:33 pm
I've attached a 50 mile datalog. this is moping along in light traffic, terrorizing the suburbs, abusing it on the highway, traffic on the highway, etc. -a nice well rounded log, IMO

I have also attached the current tune and a screenshot showing the filters i'm using before making any corrections.

last night before driving home, I set the injector slopes to my original starting point, 19 and 20.5 with a BP of 4.  then I beat the hell out of the car on the ride home. when I analyzed the log, EA's new calculations seemed sane. 18.5, 19.5, and a BP of 3.5.

analyzing my new log, it wants me to set the low slope lower than the high slope. I understand that's a no-no.   

should I leave the injectors alone now and try to adjust it using the MAF curve instead?

the car runs good btw.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 26, 2016, 12:28:35 pm
Don't have time to look closely right now.  One thing, that range for TAR.  Not sure what that's going to leave you if anything.  Go like 0 to 1,  or 0 to 0.5.  Give that a try.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 26, 2016, 04:38:31 pm
Don't have time to look closely right now.  One thing, that range for TAR.  Not sure what that's going to leave you if anything.  Go like 0 to 1,  or 0 to 0.5.  Give that a try.


i'm pretty sure nothing changed from that as far as removing entries.

so.. since the A9L2 tune has a default fuel of E10 and i chose to keep that, i have changed the AFR in EA under "fuel delivery" to 14.08 to match E10 in my A9L2. now the injectors it recommends are 18.75H and 18.85L. i made both 18.75 and i'mma see what happens. i also made some very, very minute changes to the MAF curve because i see the same small change recommended over and over every time.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 28, 2016, 01:10:41 pm
I have the injector oddball recommendations gone now.

ive been messing with the MAF values in detail.  dividing the wideband AFR (driver side) with the LAMBSE2, and multiplying the result. usually i'm multiplying in the .9 to .98 range ddoing it like this.

last night I did from 1.5 to 2.31v. this morning I did 2.31 to 4.7v.  seems to be far more accurate than using any of the automatic calculations.  I'm finally seeing the numbers on the WB i'd expect to be seeing.

should I turn off anything in my tune when I'm logging this?  I don't really understand if the short term trims are going to problematic or not as far as skewing the data. I assume after I do this a few times there won't really be any significant trims factored in anyways.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 29, 2016, 09:48:49 am
this is a pretty crappy datalog from my ride to work. too much traffic to play around this morning.

I made good use of the traffic by lowering my idle to 500rpm so I could adjust the maf curve at the bottom, ie 0.5v to 1v.

can you tell me why the adaptive learning is making my KAMRF2 line get richer as my  drive progressed? this  chart represents 14 miles in traffic. I can see the AFR's stay the same, but the KAMRF's are attempting to get richer.

I have been reducing maf air row by row, as described in the post above this one.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 29, 2016, 11:59:53 am
Kinda looks like something made it go lean towards the end.  Like maybe a vacuum leak once things to hot enough, or maybe fuel pressure dropped after pump's been running a while.

For got if I asked, have a y pipe?


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 29, 2016, 01:21:46 pm
could be FP, could be a vaccum leak i suppose. i'll investigate both. -or could it just be a worn out motor? it is about ready to rebuild. i'm just tuning my old junk first to learn. i have a plethora of parts here

i have no Y pipe. currently the car has stock headers with a mac-prochamber and flowmasters.

no cats, no smog pump, no egr.. i may add high flow cats over the summer as my woman isn't into the exhaust smell.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 85_GT on February 29, 2016, 03:12:26 pm
Could be O2s.  Was it you that said they were still original? 

Another thing to try.  I've never ran one, but decipha always recommends running with 1 O2 with a y pipe.  A mac chamber may have a similar effect of confusing left/right banks.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on February 29, 2016, 04:27:09 pm


yes sir. i said "they may be the original ones". i've only had this car a couple years and i have not changed them. i'll add it to the list of things to try, but i don't understand how an o2 could be the issue. the car would have been running rich on my AFR gauge at the end of my datalog.

i just went and picked up lunch. the car definitely ran better this morning. the AFR's looked great my whole drive in to work.  i suspect you were right with the vacuum leak or fuel pressure changing as it heated up.  now that it's cooled, it runs rich. i cleared the fuel trims and it's perfect again. i believe the car always acted like this and i never had the tools to see it before. i would also bet this is how it ran rich enough to kill my first WB o2 in a week.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: 95GTspeeddemon on March 20, 2016, 08:39:59 pm
Any updates? Btw, moates does a tuning class about 2x a year. Its worth the $ to go if you can take the time off from work. Its an intense 3 days.


Title: Re: new to, and confused with quarterhorse
Post by: rob342 on March 21, 2016, 07:58:59 am
Yea I quit clearing the fuel trims and burned out another wideband.

I ordered a fuel pressure gauge locally to see if pressure was dropping as i drive but they never called to say it was in.

Neat they offer a class, but I never have time off work.  I feel like I'm falling behind if I take a holiday off.

I'm just planning to wait until I bolt on all the performance parts before trying again.  I get the jist of it now, I just don't understand the car making itself run rich evvvvvvery time I drive 20 miles