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Grass Roots Tech => Grass Roots Cylinder Heads => Topic started by: Foz on October 27, 2015, 07:18:48 pm



Title: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Foz on October 27, 2015, 07:18:48 pm
Hey all,
Is there such a thing as a list that places heads in an ascending hierarchy?
I ask as there are many who may be a little overwhelmed by the rafts of information that is brandied about at times.  Though it may be just asking how long is a piece of string and also the pushing of favourite brands and denouncement of others I think it may be a handy way for newbies to learn and set goals etc.
Cheers
Steve


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Outlaw Bill on October 27, 2015, 08:01:31 pm
You want inline or canted valve style heads?


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: al2 on October 27, 2015, 08:42:30 pm
Do both and where they stand.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: knucklefux on October 27, 2015, 08:53:30 pm
A *very* elementary way to evaluate heads, assuming accurate flow bench data, is that the HP limit of a given head is twice the cfm at the lift you're using.

Example: your cam has a gross valve lift of .500".  A head that flows 150 cfm is good for about 300 hp, and the hp peak will depend on the stroke of the engine...the longer the stroke, the lower the peak hp rpm.

This is a very rough guide, and doesn't take into account a huge number of variables like compression ratio, chamber design, etc.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Outlaw Bill on October 27, 2015, 09:04:41 pm
Inline valve - Edelbrock Victor 2, Edelbrock Victor, TFS High Port, AFR 225, TFS TW 205, AFR 205, TFS TW 185, AFR 185.

Canted valve/Yates/Cleveland style - Edebrock SC1, FRPP D3, Blue Thunder 4.3, FRPP SC1, FRPP Yates C3H, Brodix Neal, Blue Thunder 3.6, FRPP Yates C3, and CHI.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: 289nate on October 28, 2015, 12:42:00 am
That's an excellent break down Bill.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: scienceguy on October 28, 2015, 06:03:47 am
It all depends upon application.  The hierarchy listed by Bill is great for 400+ cubic inch, high compression, high rpm engines....   but doesn't apply to most of what we would build for our cars. 

What are you wanting to build?


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: dennis112 on October 28, 2015, 06:03:50 am
Yes. A very nice list of the "decent" aftermarket heads that are out there.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Foz on October 28, 2015, 07:30:23 am
Thanks so much for the replies fellas. 
Bill, I did not know there were so many options in the canted range. 

Knucklefux, I like that simple formula.

Scienceguy, I am interested in the whole range really and not pertaining to a single build and with that in mind would appreciate knowing the lower end of the scale as well including factory.

Cheers
Steve 



Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Bam54 on October 28, 2015, 10:07:19 am
I would also add Victor Jr, RHS, and Brodix has some nice inline heads.

Bam


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Foz on October 28, 2015, 05:12:42 pm
Thanks Bam54,
Where in the list would they be located?

I think this is gonna be a big list. :)

What about Ford X, Z, etc?

Cheers
Steve


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: CDW6212R on October 28, 2015, 05:16:13 pm
The canted valve SBF heads will be the best, but those first come down to the choices for intakes, exhaust, and front accessories. Those differences dictate most people's decisions about those heads. The engine is totally different externally because of it.

They also cost more for the given application. If the choices for intake/exhaust etc, make it too much trouble, then pick an inline head.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: juiced coupe on October 28, 2015, 05:38:38 pm

Where in the list would they be located?

What about Ford X, Z, etc?

Many of these heads are available in many different sizes and configurations, which would change their "ranking" on any list. Even among heads that appear more/less the same, there can be huge differences.

As for the Ford heads. The Z heads are a High Port copy, and use offset rockers. IMO, just a pretender. If you are after that style head, get real High Ports.

The X heads are a low end head and will likely be near bottom on anyone's list. Only available in pedestal mount and have a weird valve guide boss that requires machine work to use any decent spring. They also have some other flaws that make them less desirable.

But whatever your goals are will dictate the type of head you need.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Joel5.0 on October 28, 2015, 07:39:50 pm
TFS TW heads are not inline heads. TFS High Ports are, but TW heads are not.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Outlaw Bill on October 28, 2015, 08:55:12 pm
TFS TW heads are not inline heads. TFS High Ports are, but TW heads are not.
I lumped them in there to prevent confusion.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Outlaw Bill on October 28, 2015, 08:59:18 pm
Updated.

Inline valve - Edelbrock Victor 2, Edelbrock Victor, TFS High Port, Brodix Track 1, AFR 225, Edelbrock Victor Jr, TFS TW 205, AFR 205, TFS TW 185, AFR 185, AFR 165, FRPP GT-40X, GT40

Canted valve/Yates/Cleveland style - Edebrock SC1, FRPP D3, Blue Thunder 4.3, FRPP SC1, FRPP Yates C3H, Brodix Neal, Blue Thunder 3.6, FRPP Yates C3, and CHI.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Foz on October 28, 2015, 09:29:02 pm
As predicted the list(s) are quite lengthy. 
Whilst I am not in the market (is anyone ever out of the market for go fast goodies? ),  this list will, I hope, make it easier for me and others to refer when researching.  I don't believe it will be a solve all solution but maybe it could provide some easy to understand info.

Outlaw Bill, thanks for updating the list. 

Juiced Coupe, I take it the high ports you refer the Z to being a copy of as being TFS? 

CDW6212R, The restrictions of $ and application are ever present eh?

Keep the suggestions and opinions coming chaps.
Cheers
Steve




Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: juiced coupe on October 28, 2015, 09:57:06 pm
Juiced Coupe, I take it the high ports you refer the Z to being a copy of as being TFS? 

Thats them. They have been around since the late 80s and continue to get better. With its various versions, its likely the most versatile head in the sbf world.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: al2 on October 28, 2015, 10:02:43 pm
Might want to add the 170 TW in there very popular head


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Foz on November 09, 2015, 05:52:42 pm
Where would the TW 170 slot in al2?


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Outlaw Bill on November 09, 2015, 07:12:17 pm
Where would the TW 170 slot in al2?
They are between the AFR 165 and 185, closer to the 185.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: juiced coupe on November 09, 2015, 09:19:05 pm
Where would the TW 170 slot in al2?
They are between the AFR 165 and 185, closer to the 185.

It's also worth noting that the TWs have more ultimate potential with porting.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: 69 Merc on November 10, 2015, 09:55:35 am
Where would the TW 170 slot in al2?
They are between the AFR 165 and 185, closer to the 185.

It's also worth noting that the TWs have more ultimate potential with porting.


By T.E.A., yessiree!


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Cold Aussie on November 10, 2015, 08:24:57 pm
Where do Kaase's P38's rank in this list?
Stephen


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Rick90lx on April 22, 2017, 08:57:46 pm
I'm curious of where the new 11R heads fall in the line up.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: juiced coupe on April 22, 2017, 09:21:21 pm
I'm curious of where the new 11R heads fall in the line up.

For comparison purposes, I'd figure them roughly the same as the old TWs of similar sizing.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: dennis112 on April 23, 2017, 06:49:09 am
Curious as to what desired advantage the Edelbrock Victor 2 has over the Victor? 


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: cheapbastard on April 23, 2017, 08:43:42 am
I'm curious of where the new 11R heads fall in the line up.

For comparison purposes, I'd figure them roughly the same as the old TWs of similar sizing.
There certainly seems to be some people making good power in small displacement 8.2 blocks without big cams with them.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Rick90lx on April 23, 2017, 01:12:19 pm
I'm curious of where the new 11R heads fall in the line up.

For comparison purposes, I'd figure them roughly the same as the old TWs of similar sizing.
There certainly seems to be some people making good power in small displacement 8.2 blocks without big cams with them.

That's why I asked.  They seem to make considerably more power than the TW of old.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: juiced coupe on April 23, 2017, 05:52:12 pm
That's why I asked.  They seem to make considerably more power than the TW of old.

While I'm sure that the new heads are an improvement, I don't know about the way more power thing.

People are getting better at making power, no doubt about it. But people are also making more power with older stuff too.

Many Renegade and Drag Radial cars ran mid/low 8s with the old heads, several years ago. Hell, a member here ran mid 9s N/A with a factory block and crank 306 with a set, and low 9s with a aftermarket block stroker before a engine failure took it out. There is a member on several other forms that ran high 9s with a set of unported 170s on a 408, N/A.

As far as I  know, the old school Renegade TW heads are still the badest stock intake/exhaust port location heads out there. There may be something out there now that is actually better, but those are some tough shoes to fill.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: LiteEmUp on April 25, 2017, 05:52:45 pm
Canfield 192's 195's ??
 :wonder:


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: juiced coupe on April 25, 2017, 06:18:51 pm
Canfield 192's 195's ??
 :wonder:

About equal to a unported TFS High Port, especially considering that they are basically copies of the HP heads.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: 289nate on April 26, 2017, 11:42:43 pm
Canfield 192's 195's ??
 :wonder:

Stay away from the 192.  They are prone to cracking.  The 195 does not suffer the same problem and was a very good cylinder head for the money.  I've been told they are a little better out of the box than the 192 High Port.  But, the High Port can be opened up more than the Canfield.  I haven't seen much over 330 cfm on the intake port after porting on a Canfield because it gets too thin to take them further.  I've been happy with the set I have.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: 289nate on April 26, 2017, 11:51:38 pm
That's why I asked.  They seem to make considerably more power than the TW of old.

While I'm sure that the new heads are an improvement, I don't know about the way more power thing.

People are getting better at making power, no doubt about it. But people are also making more power with older stuff too.

Many Renegade and Drag Radial cars ran mid/low 8s with the old heads, several years ago. Hell, a member here ran mid 9s N/A with a factory block and crank 306 with a set, and low 9s with a aftermarket block stroker before a engine failure took it out. There is a member on several other forms that ran high 9s with a set of unported 170s on a 408, N/A.

As far as I  know, the old school Renegade TW heads are still the badest stock intake/exhaust port location heads out there. There may be something out there now that is actually better, but those are some tough shoes to fill.

Plus, people are running the 11r 185 head where they used to run the as cast TW 170.

I have a set of those old Renegade TW heads.  They are really getting on my nerve to do a small inch high compression, high rpm, E85 build with them.


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Cobra109 on April 27, 2017, 11:27:31 am
I can not believe that with all this input from HP ford gurus, that no one has brought up the e6se heads. the ultimate.........


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: juiced coupe on April 27, 2017, 04:29:38 pm
I can not believe that with all this input from HP ford gurus, that no one has brought up the e6se heads. the ultimate.........

Its funny how some things just line up.

Quote from: 86
When used as a verb in American English, eighty-six, eighty-sixed, 86, 86ed, or 86'd, is slang for getting rid of something, ejecting someone, or refusing service.

Meaning:

According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, "86" is a slang term that is used in the American popular culture as atransitive verb to mean throw out or get rid of, particularly in the food service industry as a term to describe an item no longer available on the menu, or to refuse service to a customer.[1] The Merriam Webster dictionary suggests the term may be associated with the word "nix" ("no" or a more general prohibition).[1]


Title: Re: Head Hierarchy?
Post by: Cobra109 on April 28, 2017, 09:17:06 am
Im afraid that e6se are not going to line at all.