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Author Topic: Why not use titanium keepers and retainers?  (Read 4654 times)
RunninHorse
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« on: July 01, 2010, 11:21:37 am »

I recently dropped off my old high ports for a refresh and to have the steel valves replaced with some titaniums that I already had.  The kid working the counter said they didn't recommend titanium keepers and retainers for a daily driver because "they break."  Isn't titanium stronger than the lightweight steel?  Can't I at least use titanium retainers?  Any thoughts?  Thank you in advance.   Thanx!
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I'm Rob.  Working on my '93 Reef Blue coupe.  Stock internal 302, 80 MAF, 75 TB, Victor 5.0, High Ports, 30# inj., B303, 1.6s, Tremec 3550-2, & 3.73s.  Cobra EEC untuned went 13.9 @ 109 on street tires.
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347HO
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 02:04:25 pm »

They will not break.

IMO, Ti retainers should be used on everything. 4 Eyed
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 03:08:07 pm by mighty mouse » Logged




... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
Outlaw Bill
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 02:25:12 pm »

They will not break, the guy was a idiot.
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 02:32:08 pm »

Just like Bill & 347HO said, the guy is an idiot.

Titanium is superior to steel.
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scienceguy
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 02:46:05 pm »

Before Ti, aluminum retainers were common.  Those weren't really recommended for continuous use, as sometimes the valves could pull through. 

Some old timer probably told him that, thinking of the old days of Al retainers.
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 02:50:09 pm »

Uh...  typo.
Suppose to have a "not" in my post.
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
RunninHorse
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 04:42:47 pm »

Okay, Kotzur finally answered the phone.  I was worried they had already assembled them without calling me.  We're gonna discuss Ti retainers before they assemble them, but he still didn't recommend Ti keepers.   
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I'm Rob.  Working on my '93 Reef Blue coupe.  Stock internal 302, 80 MAF, 75 TB, Victor 5.0, High Ports, 30# inj., B303, 1.6s, Tremec 3550-2, & 3.73s.  Cobra EEC untuned went 13.9 @ 109 on street tires.
'66 F100 shortbed, 352ci, 3 on the tree - on hold
'65 Coupe rolling chassis - on hold
Parts I'm selling: 
Hardened Push Rods - Trick Flow 6.2" .080 - $60
Misc. Fox Body Interior Pieces
mmb
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 04:49:47 pm »

I was under the impression Titanium would fatigue faster than Steel....  Which would allow it to break?

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scienceguy
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 04:53:51 pm »

Okay, Kotzur finally answered the phone.  I was worried they had already assembled them without calling me.  We're gonna discuss Ti retainers before they assemble them, but he still didn't recommend Ti keepers.   

Ti retainers are decent for the money, but keepers are so lightweight anyway, that spending much money on those isn't really necessary unless you're willing to spend big bucks to eliminate every possible gram of mass from the valvetrain. 

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RunninHorse
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2010, 04:56:35 pm »

That makes sense.  Looks like I know what to do now. 

Any thoughts on how much more HP I'll free up going from steel valves/retainers to Ti?  I figure it'll rev faster at least, and less chance of floating a valve.
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I'm Rob.  Working on my '93 Reef Blue coupe.  Stock internal 302, 80 MAF, 75 TB, Victor 5.0, High Ports, 30# inj., B303, 1.6s, Tremec 3550-2, & 3.73s.  Cobra EEC untuned went 13.9 @ 109 on street tires.
'66 F100 shortbed, 352ci, 3 on the tree - on hold
'65 Coupe rolling chassis - on hold
Parts I'm selling: 
Hardened Push Rods - Trick Flow 6.2" .080 - $60
Misc. Fox Body Interior Pieces
347HO
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2010, 05:05:59 pm »

I was under the impression Titanium would fatigue faster than Steel....  Which would allow it to break?


When bullshitting with Jay, the idea of designing the cam lobe specifically for Ti stems came up.
Also, the use of lashcaps was accepted as a good idea.

I'm admitting to this as purely conversational as I have no proof what lasts longer.  It's just subjects come up when talking with Jay and we move on without hurting our brains by going in-depth.
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... it was REALLY revving at like 4K...
If I saw that thing in my rear view Im pulling over to let you by, I be scared of that thing Huh? i dont know wich car is uglier ur or mine?
Javier
Ugly?  Easy now -- that's my baby and it's got lots of unique character!  When I drop that built 445" stroker in it you won't have any time to "pull over to let me pass" because I'll have already blown past you when you figure out what the hell was that loud noise behind you . . .  
RunninHorse
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2010, 05:27:15 pm »

Lash caps are in the plan.

I imagine if you're designing a cam specifically for Ti stem you wouldn't want to use steel instead.  I'm doing the opposite though, using Ti with a cam designed for steel valves.  So I guess it should work fine, but I won't be able to take full advantage of the Ti valves with this cam.
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I'm Rob.  Working on my '93 Reef Blue coupe.  Stock internal 302, 80 MAF, 75 TB, Victor 5.0, High Ports, 30# inj., B303, 1.6s, Tremec 3550-2, & 3.73s.  Cobra EEC untuned went 13.9 @ 109 on street tires.
'66 F100 shortbed, 352ci, 3 on the tree - on hold
'65 Coupe rolling chassis - on hold
Parts I'm selling: 
Hardened Push Rods - Trick Flow 6.2" .080 - $60
Misc. Fox Body Interior Pieces
scienceguy
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2010, 08:52:41 pm »

Ti valves/retainers/keepers won't allow the engine to 'rev quicker' all by themselves.  They only reason they are used is if the cam has extremely steep ramps and needs an extremely lightweight valvetrain to keep the valves in control. 

If you're using a cam with straight up and down lobes...  and are wanting to turn a lot of rpm with it, the valves are getting SLAMMED open and literally DROPPED shut.  A heavy valvetrain will resist the quick opening and will surge against the spring at the top of its lift, lofting off the lobe...  and when it does start to close, it will be off the lobe, freefalling.  It may contact the closing flank of the lobe somewhere, or just slam down against the seat, uncontrolled... which will cause bounce.

A lightweight valvetrain allows for a camshaft with steep lobes.  If Ti is used throughout, super steep lobes can be used and taken advante of.  If camlobes are used that are designed for steel valves, then the lightweight parts won't really be of any benefit...  as they will follow the cam lobe anyway.

Ti retainers are 'good insurance' in about any application that will turn over 6k rpm, but I wouldn't go to the expense of Ti valves/keepers unless a lobe designed for them was to be used.  There's just no benefit to it.  Plus, most Ti valves have a special coating on the stems for some reason, and I'd be worried about it wearing off.  Grinding Ti valves is a PITA.  Plus, many heads that use Ti valves use special seats.  I don't really know all the particulars with Ti valves when it comes to longevity, but they need looked into.  They're not just 'plug and play'.

Good Luck!
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2010, 01:30:02 am »

Titanium does not like shear loads very well. The keepers and the grove in the valve stem create a shear application that is asking for trouble. Suggest high quality machined keepers and Ti retainers. I have run the above for 16 years with out any issues.
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Bossman
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2010, 10:15:16 am »

There are also guys making tool steel light weight retainers that are pretty close to the same weight as Ti.  Beehive retainers are crazy light, combine that with Ti and they are practically non-existent. 
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