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Rough idle that smooths out in time.
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Topic: Rough idle that smooths out in time. (Read 624 times)
rusty105
Big Block
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Posts: 817
Location:
Carmel, NY
Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
on:
June 29, 2010, 03:42:42 pm »
Hey Joel....
I haven't pulled codes yet, but I have a question? I just picked up a 86 Mustang GT, the previous owner said the previous owner, to him, had the engine rebuilt. Now the guy I bought it from hasn't had in on the road in over 2 years, so lack of running may be my issue, but let me describe it. When cold it will start and run Really rough, rough to the point of dieing, sounds like it has a mild cam as well. Anyway, after about 4-5 minutes it will all of a sudden smooth out. It is still a speed/density setup. I am thinking there is a thermostatic switch that does something as soon as it reaches a temp? I'll pull codes this weekend and see what comes up. Any specific tests to run?
Thanks
Logged
Rusty
Engines are not 'LEGOs' It is not snap and click and there you have it.
Getting the Education I should have received years ago !
Racefab
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 15404
Location:
Puerto Rico
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #1 on:
June 29, 2010, 08:00:42 pm »
Run the DIY KOEO/KOER self tests =
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html
Then.... you may want to:
1. Clean that TB with carb cleaner and a nylon brush.
2. Check/recondition those salt and pepper connectors =
http://fordfuelinjection.com/index.php?p=85
3. Perform a base idle reset =
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html
LUK
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ACRONYMS:
LUK
LMK
JIC
BTSTDTRT
YCYDYP
NFI-YTM
SPOBI
, and the classic...
DILLIGAS
'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads
www.fordstrokers.com
www.camshaftinnovations.com
www.teamzmotorsports.net
www.thumperoforangepark.com
http://www.mtkglobaltravel.com/
Helping ID engine chokers since 2008
Quote from: Joel5.0
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open. (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it.
(Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
David Claflin
Adv_SBFTechie
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 4157
Location:
Redneck Riviera (Ft Walton Beach Florida)
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #2 on:
June 30, 2010, 04:44:56 pm »
Once it gets where it is making corrections with the O2 signals is probably what you're seeing, do as Joel suggests, I'd be checking for a vacuum leak as well.
Logged
1990 Red LX, 306, 5.4 rods, 92MM Pro-M, 90MM TB, TFS-R, Neil Erickson ported Edelbrock performer heads, CI cam, 1 3/4" longtubes, Moates QH, T5, 3.73's, 5 lug, Cobra disks,
7.68@89.4MPH
daily driver
1986 LTD station wagon, Fordstrokers 418 windsor coming, Canfield 195s, Super Vic both ported by Duane Busch, CI cam, 4R70W, 4.10s, Team Z front and rear suspension
rusty105
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 817
Location:
Carmel, NY
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #3 on:
July 01, 2010, 06:47:23 am »
Quote from: David Claflin on June 30, 2010, 04:44:56 pm
Once it gets where it is making corrections with the O2 signals is probably what you're seeing, do as Joel suggests, I'd be checking for a vacuum leak as well.
Yeah, I have to check everything, I think the engine was thrown together by a hack. I think it also has a fuel delivery problem. When it stalls it will refire for a fraction of a second, then die. BUT as long as it is running it is fine, so far. I only have about 20 minutes of seat time in it, so I am sure I will find more 'issues'
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Rusty
Engines are not 'LEGOs' It is not snap and click and there you have it.
Getting the Education I should have received years ago !
Racefab
rusty105
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 817
Location:
Carmel, NY
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #4 on:
July 03, 2010, 06:18:14 pm »
OK
KOEO codes:
67
84
(flashed both 2x)
flashed a 1
then flashed 34 (2x)
from my Haynes
67= "Neutral Drive Switch"
84= "EGR Control Circuit"
34= "EVP voltage above closed unit"
I tried to get KOER codes, but nothing came up
I did the base idle reset, .90 volts on the TPS.
It still has the issue, and it happens on every start, cold or hot. I will post a video later.
Logged
Rusty
Engines are not 'LEGOs' It is not snap and click and there you have it.
Getting the Education I should have received years ago !
Racefab
liljoe07
Adv_SBFTechie
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 6209
Location:
Cartersville, GA
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #5 on:
July 03, 2010, 06:38:55 pm »
Code 67 may be contributing to the bad idle. That's plus there may be some codes in the KOER test also. But code 67 will not allow that test to run.
Try and run the KOER test again. But this time hold the clutch through the remainder of the test. See if the codes flash then.
Logged
89 Coupe:
302- Canfield 195's, Jay Allen Cam, Holley Systemax II, Comp Cams 1.6's,75mm TB & MAF, 24lb Inj, 4.10's, 3" Exhaust
Quote from: 347HO on January 10, 2010, 11:39:45 pm
Well since you friggin disagree with every damn suggestion, just rebuild the piece of shit.
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 15404
Location:
Puerto Rico
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #6 on:
July 03, 2010, 07:18:44 pm »
.... + disconnect the EVP sensor connector and leave it disconnected, clear codes and make sure code 31 is the one that shows. If so, make sure the EGR valve is not staying partially opened.... causing an exhaust leak into the intake + code 34 to show.
Logged
ACRONYMS:
LUK
LMK
JIC
BTSTDTRT
YCYDYP
NFI-YTM
SPOBI
, and the classic...
DILLIGAS
'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads
www.fordstrokers.com
www.camshaftinnovations.com
www.teamzmotorsports.net
www.thumperoforangepark.com
http://www.mtkglobaltravel.com/
Helping ID engine chokers since 2008
Quote from: Joel5.0
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open. (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it.
(Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
rusty105
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 817
Location:
Carmel, NY
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #7 on:
July 03, 2010, 11:25:44 pm »
Thanks for the info, I'll look into it tomorrow, but for now here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5WI6hcVZs
Warning, the accessory drive makes a horrible noise! The A/C clutch bearing is shot, and the power steering whines. I'll get to those soon enough.
Anyway, around 1:10 in the video, it stumbles, then runs much better. Not great, but better. I am not sure you can see on the vac gauge, but it goes from bouncing 5-12 to an almost steady 16-17. This happens EVERY time I start the engine, doesn't matter if hot or cold, every time. It also doesn't always clear up, at that magic point in time it either dies, or clears up. Make for an interesting drive.
Thanks!!
Logged
Rusty
Engines are not 'LEGOs' It is not snap and click and there you have it.
Getting the Education I should have received years ago !
Racefab
rusty105
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 817
Location:
Carmel, NY
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #8 on:
July 04, 2010, 12:33:32 am »
Oh, and disregard the "fuel delivery" problem I mentioned in post #3. It had a bad ignition switch. It was making intermittent contact.
I pick up the car last week, and I know it had issues, guess I got my work cut out for me.
Logged
Rusty
Engines are not 'LEGOs' It is not snap and click and there you have it.
Getting the Education I should have received years ago !
Racefab
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 15404
Location:
Puerto Rico
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #9 on:
July 04, 2010, 09:46:18 am »
Make sure you do not have vacuum going to the EGR valve, disconnect and plug the vacuum line to the valve. LUK
Logged
ACRONYMS:
LUK
LMK
JIC
BTSTDTRT
YCYDYP
NFI-YTM
SPOBI
, and the classic...
DILLIGAS
'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads
www.fordstrokers.com
www.camshaftinnovations.com
www.teamzmotorsports.net
www.thumperoforangepark.com
http://www.mtkglobaltravel.com/
Helping ID engine chokers since 2008
Quote from: Joel5.0
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open. (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it.
(Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
rusty105
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 817
Location:
Carmel, NY
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #10 on:
July 05, 2010, 05:48:23 pm »
OK, I pulled the connector to the sensor on the EGR, car wont stay running, but code "31" does show up now.
But you mentioned this
Quote from: Joel5.0 on July 04, 2010, 09:46:18 am
Make sure you do not have vacuum going to the EGR valve, disconnect and plug the vacuum line to the valve. LUK
I pulled the vac line going to the EGR valve, and plugged it, MUCH better. Idle still rolls . Crappy tach says about 850-1050RPM, BUT a separate tach says about 250 RPM lower. (The instrument cluster is not original to the car,
,I also found out gray is not the real interior color
)
Any benefit to deleting the EGR?
Logged
Rusty
Engines are not 'LEGOs' It is not snap and click and there you have it.
Getting the Education I should have received years ago !
Racefab
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 15404
Location:
Puerto Rico
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #11 on:
July 05, 2010, 07:24:01 pm »
Aside a cleaner engine bay and cooler air flowing through the intake..... nope.
Logged
ACRONYMS:
LUK
LMK
JIC
BTSTDTRT
YCYDYP
NFI-YTM
SPOBI
, and the classic...
DILLIGAS
'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads
www.fordstrokers.com
www.camshaftinnovations.com
www.teamzmotorsports.net
www.thumperoforangepark.com
http://www.mtkglobaltravel.com/
Helping ID engine chokers since 2008
Quote from: Joel5.0
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open. (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it.
(Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
Uhvnutn
4 Banger
Offline
Posts: 11
Location:
Pompano Beach, FL
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #12 on:
July 11, 2010, 01:57:37 am »
I am having the same issue with my 93 lx. It was originally a 4 cyl car that I converted. When I start it up it runs fine for a minute then runs like crap. I starts to run rough/flat and has now power. After another minute or so it clears up. I can be driving while it is doing it and all of a sudden its like a switch if flipped and it runs great.
I have ran the codes and the only ones I am getting are from the egr being deleted. I have been dealing with and trouble shooting this issue for some time now and haven't had any luck. I also know a few other people that have the same problem. If someone can shed some light on this issue that would be great.
Logged
Joel5.0
El Hombre
Administrator
Big Block
Offline
Posts: 15404
Location:
Puerto Rico
Re: Rough idle that smooths out in time.
«
Reply #13 on:
July 11, 2010, 01:12:09 pm »
Quote from: Uhvnutn on July 11, 2010, 01:57:37 am
I am having the same issue with my 93 lx. It was originally a 4 cyl car that I converted. When I start it up it runs fine for a minute then runs like crap. I starts to run rough/flat and has now power. After another minute or so it clears up. I can be driving while it is doing it and all of a sudden its like a switch if flipped and it runs great.
I have ran the codes and the only ones I am getting are from the egr being deleted. I have been dealing with and trouble shooting this issue for some time now and haven't had any luck. I also know a few other people that have the same problem. If someone can shed some light on this issue that would be great.
There is no "one solution will solve all the cases" situation. You need to go through the procedures to ID, isolate and correct the specific cause(s) for your particular setup. A partial list of "possible causes" or recommended procedures based on the cases I've worked for years are:
- 10-pin connectors reconditioning.
- Base Idle reset.
- Check for vacuum leaks, make sure no unmetered air conditions are present (open breather with PCV valve and/or PCV valve is installed correctly).
- MAF sensor elements reconditioning.
- O2 sensors heater power and ground circuits verification.
- Main and EEC grounds voltage drop test.
- Make sure EEC electrolytic capacitors on the board are not leaking/faulty.
- Check/confirm valve train is not under excessive lifters preload condition.
- Alternator ripple test (AC noise in system will cause EEC system to misbehave).
- Wiring harnesses problems.
- Wiring connectors contact problems.
Logged
ACRONYMS:
LUK
LMK
JIC
BTSTDTRT
YCYDYP
NFI-YTM
SPOBI
, and the classic...
DILLIGAS
'86 Mustang GT, X-303 cam, Holley DP 700, RG Tran., 289 Heads
www.fordstrokers.com
www.camshaftinnovations.com
www.teamzmotorsports.net
www.thumperoforangepark.com
http://www.mtkglobaltravel.com/
Helping ID engine chokers since 2008
Quote from: Joel5.0
Great Thoughts will Overwhelm a Feeble Mind
There is never money to do it right, but there's always money to do it over.
Knowledge based on external evidence is unreliable.
He, who doesn't ask, does not deserve an answer.
A mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open. (oldmanjoe)
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein)
Tuning on a Dyno for the track, is like swim practice in a bathtub.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. (90lxcoupe)
The proof of understanding is the ability to explain it. (H. Torruella)
Ignorance is bliss, but stupidity is orgasmic.
Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it.
(Samuel Johnson)
The chaotic resistance of the opponents leads to the conclusion that they are not prepared to meet the challenge. The problem is already much more psychological then technological. [Bojidar Djordjev]
Individuals are rational and humane... Crowds are reactionary and barbaric. (Jason)
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it. –Chinese Proverb
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